HC Deb 28 June 1920 vol 131 cc107-10
Lord H. CECIL

Would not the Government be wise to postpone this Clause, which appears to deal with a question that is reserved for their consideration?

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

We could pass the Clause pro forma without prejudice to undertakings that have been given.

Lord H. CECIL

I beg to move "That consideration of the Clause be postponed."

This Clause makes very elaborate arrangements, all of which will have to be discussed if the Government adopt the suggestion made by the right hon. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson)— a suggestion which they appear to be considering favourably. I should have thought that the appropriate course would have been to drop the Clause out of the Bill at this stage or to postpone it to be dealt with at the same time as the other financial Clauses, because by that time the Government will have made up their mind and will be able to put into a new Clause the details of any arrangements they make.

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I hope my Noble Friend will not persist in his Motion. This Clause forms part of a series of Clauses, some of which have already been put in. There is the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long) to reconsider the whole question of the police. I do not know what the Bill will look like if we do not deal with the Clause while we are about it. I can foresee considerable drafting difficulties in framing the new scheme unless we have before us either all the old scheme or none of it. We have already part of the old scheme in the Bill, and it is much more convenient that the rest of it should go in, without prejudice to the undertaking already recorded with regard to reconsideration.

Sir D. MACLEAN

I hope this Clause will be postponed. The whole question of the Royal Irish Constabulary is exciting the greatest possible interest, not only in Ireland, but in this country. The Constabulary are discharging a very difficult and dangerous task in Ireland, and passing this Resolution pro formâ—

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

If my right hon. Friend thinks there is any advantage to the Committee in postponing the Clause, I will agree to postpone it, but I think that in the matter of drafting it will be a great deal better to have it there in considering Amendments.

Major Earl WINTERTON

I am very glad of that, but I should like to have a little more definite information as to the procedure the Government propose to adopt regarding the police. My right hon. Friend has stated that he would—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Sir E. Cornwall)

The object of postponement is to put off discussion for a time. We can only discuss reasons why the Clause should be postponed.

Earl WINTERTON

If I may respectfully request it, would you point out what word I have uttered that is out of Order? I should be very grateful.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I understood the Noble Lord was proceeding to discuss the question of the Royal Irish Constabulary.

Earl WINTERTON

I was proceeding to do nothing of the sort. I merely wished to say I would like to know when the Government are going to give us an opportunity of discussing this matter. On a point of Order. May I qut a question? The proposal before the Committee is that this Clause should be postponed. May I ask whether it is in Order on such a ques- tion to ask the Government to what date it is proposed to postpone the discussion?

The DEPUTY- CHAIRMAN

That would be quite in Order.

Earl WINTERTON

That was what I was proceeding to say when you interrupted me in the middle of a sentence. The point I wish to put is this: We have, by a former decision, decided to postpone consideration of the Financial Clauses. We are now going to postpone consideration of the Clauses dealing with the police. I would like to ask whether, pending the discussion of the Police Clauses, the Government are taking steps to ascertain from the police themselves what are their views on the matter. I think I am not travelling outside the scope of the Motion in mentioning that, on the 1912 Bill, the then Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Birrell), on a similar proposal being made to postpone the Police Clauses, stated that steps had been taken, pending discussion of the question by the House after postponement, to ascertain the views of the police, both by means of county committees and by means of a central committee representing the whole force, and that this inquiry would be completed before the Clause was taken. If this Clause is postponed now, will the Government make a real effort to ascertain the views of the police themselves on the Clause? I would draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the answer given by Mr. Birrell in this sHouse in April, 1913, when a similar point arose.

Captain W. BENN

Before we come to a decision on the Amendment, I should be much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman if he would repeat what was the pledge given by the Government to the right hon. Member for Duncairn in reference to the police. I have some idea what it was, but I am not quite clear.

Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS

There has been no private undertaking given. It was made in Committee, and it is, of course, recorded in the OFFICIAL REPORT. There are communications going on now with regard to the new scheme, and the whole matter will receive consideration before the Clause is brought up again for discussion.

Earl WINTERTON

With whom are the communications? That is an important point. Are the views of the police being ascertained? Are the police being consulted through properly constituted committees?

Sir L. WORTHINGTON - EVANS

They are being consulted, yes; but whether it is being done through what my Noble Friend calls "properly constituted committees" is another matter. That I really cannot say. After all, what is the proposal? The proposal we have undertaken to consider is that the service should be wound up within a period, and that the men should be allowed to re-engage. That is not a matter upon which there would necessarily be detailed consultation with representatives of the police.

Earl WINTERTON

I understand that there are in Ireland, as in this country, committees set up by the police, and to such committees questions of this kind might be put. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this, and ascertain whether or not the opinion of the police as a whole has been ascertained through those committees? It is most important that their views should be taken before we discuss this Clause. When the Clause is again discussed, three or four weeks hence, we do not want to be told that the views of the police have not been obtained.

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

The Noble Lord's suggestion shall receive consideration, and the course he suggests will, no doubt, be adopted.

Question, "That consideration of the Clause be postponed," put, and agreed to.