MAINTENANCE OF LAW AND ORDER.

HC Deb 22 June 1920 vol 130 cc2101-44

Colonel ASHLEY

I beg to move "That this House do now adjourn."

The object of the Motion which I have the honour to move is to draw attention to the failure of the Government to maintain law and order in Ireland, with special reference to Londonderry and Dublin.

Dr. MURRAY

Where is the Government?

Colonel ASHLEY

Personally, I have never spoken with a sense of greater responsibility than I do this evening, and I can conceive that it has very seldom fallen to the lot of any hon. Member of this House.

Sir THOMAS BRAMSDON

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is it right that this Debate should go on without a representative of the Government on the Front Bench?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Whitley)

That is hardly a point of Order. We always allow time for the Government to come in.

Colonel ASHLEY

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to the matter. I would have done so myself in two or three minutes, but I saw the representatives of the Government in another place, attending to the needs of the inner man, and I know that they will be here very shortly. I do not think any hon. Member of this House has ever risen—certainly I never have—under circumstances of graver import and greater peril to this country, to Ireland, and, indeed, to the Empire, than at the present moment. I will, first of all, refer specifically and definitely to the circumstances of Londonderry and Dublin, and I will then proceed, with your permission, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to make some general observations on the position as a whole. If my information is correct, the deplorable and terrible situation in Londonderry arose mainly from the attempt of the Sinn Feiners to oust the loyalists from taking part in the work at the shipbuilding yard in that town. I am not making a great point of that, because it is a powder magazine which any spark might set alight, and there are faults on both sides. But the primary cause of this deplorable outbreak is, undoubtedly, the determined attempt to oust from the industrial mainstay of that town all those who are loyalists and wish to maintain the connection with this country. Disturbances arose, first of all, on Tuesday of last week—seven days ago—when there were considerable disturbances in the town. There were shootings, but, happily, there were no serious casualties of any sort. Matters simmered on for some days, and on Friday and Saturday a most deplorable outbreak took place, in which five were killed and very many injured. I may say that, if five are acknowledged to have been killed, probably three or four times that number were really killed, because both sides make it a point of honour not to allow it to be known how many are killed and injured. Buildings belonging to loyalists were burnt, the casualties were too numerous for the ambulances to cope with, looting by the drunken mob took place on an extensive scale, and, when the fire engine came out, the Sinn Feiners took possession of it, took it to their own quarter, and there destroyed it. It is a sufficiently serious situation, even in these days, to have arrested some sort of serious attention from His Majesty's Government; but, at any rate as far as I can see from the published accounts, nothing was done. Nothing of any import was done. A few hundred soldiers marched up and down the streets and went back to barracks. I do not blame the police. They are far too few in numbers to be able to cope with such a dangerous situation. This morning there was a renewed riot, three more were killed and many more were injured. I would draw attention to a most foul crime which I could not believe any inhabitants of the United Kingdom could be guilty of. It is more worthy of darkest Africa or some savage Asiatic potentate. Let me read the paragraph: Most tragic of all yesterday's (Monday's) events was the shooting of a young man named Howard McKay, son of the governor of apprentice boys of Derry. Mr. McKay, who was about 25 years of age, and served in France with the North Irish Horse during the War, had been on holiday. He was not in uniform. He was not a resident. He only arrived in the city yesterday (Sunday) afternoon. He was on his way to his father's residence outside the city, but on the outskirts of the town he was seized by armed Sinn Feiners, bound with ropes, and then shot dead. The body lay on the roadside for several hours. What happened to James Dobbin, an inhabitant of the town? He was severely wounded and thrown into the river and is now lying in hospital with the lower portion of his body completely paralysed. He was rescued from the river owing to the gallant exertions of the police in the face of a furious mob. Where is the Government of this country? Where is the Government of Ireland? It is seven days since these disastrous happenings began. On Friday and Saturday it amounted to mob law. The city authorities were not in command, the troops were not in command, the police were not in command. No one was in command except a drunken mob. Have we in Ireland a Government capable of enforcing the law, that for seven days one of the big cities of the North of Ireland should be handed over to mob law in this way—I do not care whether Unionists or Sinn Feiners? I ask what possible justification can there be for allowing these things to go on and not coming, if necessary, to the House of Commons to ask for further powers or for fresh troops, which would willingly and gladly be given, in order to restore some semblance of law and order to that unhappy district?

Let me turn for a moment to another place to which our special attention is drawn to-night. Dublin is going to be, under this fatuous Bill which we have been discussing, the chief town of the Southern Parliament which is to sit there to administer the law, to keep order and to rule three-quarters or four-fifths of Ireland. I must ask for the patience of the House while I read out some 25 or 30 occurrences which have happened in that unhappy place during the last twelve months. For several months past disregard of the law and the taking of human life have been on the increase and apparently the Government are able to do nothing whatever to maintain the sanctity of life and the inviolability of property in that city. Go back to 12th March last year— Daring raid for arms in Richmond Road, Dublin, Mr. Pearson shot dead in resisting raid. 20th March, aerodrome raided, sentries gagged and bound. Everything stolen. On 6th June of last year, outrage in Dublin; four policemen and one woman shot. What would the House say if four policemen and a woman were shot one, afternoon in this country? Would there not be a call at once for law and order? 31st July, last year, Detective Sergeant Smith shot and died in hospital. 20th October, Constable Downing brutally shot by three armed men in High Street, Dublin. 11th November, outrage in Dublin, Detective Inspector Wharton shot dead in St. Stephen's Green —as it might be in Trafalgar Square—in the middle of London. Daring robbery in Dublin on 20th November; £300 stolen. Detective Sergeant Barton murdered in College Street, Dublin, on 1st December. It is always the police who are murdered. 1st December, daring raid on Dublin bread van driver by three armed men. 20th December, Lord French attacked and Sergeant Holly wounded. The only redeeming feature of this record of crime is that Michael Savage, one of the assassins, was shot dead by the escort. 27th December, Constable Redmond assaulted and severely injured. 22nd January, Mr. Redmond, Second Assistant Commissioner of Police, shot dead in Harcourt Street. 23rd January, money stolen from a post office. 13th February, military lorry held up in the streets of Dublin and searched by armed men. That is a dignified sort of position for the British Government to be in—to have their armed soldiers help up in the streets of Dublin and searched. 16th February, armed men hold up and bomb train. 20th February, Constable Walsh shot dead. 1st March, Mr. Curtin shot dead. 25th March, corporation money stolen. 25th March, a young man shot dead in South William Street, Dublin, afterwards found to be a soldier on leave. 26th March, horrible murder of Mr. Alan Bell, resident magistrate, who was dragged out of a tramcar as he was going to his office and shot dead and his body left lying in the gutter. No one has ever been arrested for that horrible crime. On 5th April an unknown man found shot in Howth, afterwards found to be a corporal in the King's Own Regiment. 13th April, Leixlip Police Barracks burnt down. Constable Kells shot on 15th April, and Constable Dalton shot on 21st April. 26th April, Mr. Behan wounded. To end the list, we have an account of an attempt made this morning to murder the Assistant Commissioner of the Royal Irish Constabulary with revolver shots and bombs while going to his office. He was severely wounded, as also was one of his escort. This is not an exhaustive list. I could make a list which would detain the House for the best part of an hour, but here we have taken by chance 17 murder cases, and how many arrests? Not one. Murder, robbery and arson taking place daily in Dublin and not a single arrest. The only redeeming feature was that one of the assailants of Lord French was shot down when trying to escape. The victory undoubtedly rests in these cases with the assassins and not with the Government. I would ask the Attorney-General what are they going to do to improve the condition of affairs in Dublin? It is not improving. It is undoubtedly getting worse. Who rules in Derry now? The only possible answer is the mob. Who rule in Dublin? Two bodies, the Sinn Feiners, who are Republicans, and the Transport Workers' Union who are supporters of international "Soviets." The English Government does not rule in Dublin. No man's life is safe. Hon. Members who come from Ireland will support me in that statement. In whose hands is the Post Office? It is nominally in the hands of the Postmaster-General, but it is a well-known fact that 80 to 90 per cent. of the employés in the Post Office in Dublin and elsewhere in Ireland are professed Sinn Feiners. I do not suppose that if the Attorney-General wanted to communicate with the Chief Secretary in Dublin that he would ever dream of sending his letter through the post. If it went through the post it would either not arrive or it would be opened and the contents would be known. It is a well-known fact that no business firm of repute ever dreams of despatching anything of a confidential character through the post. If you want to communicate with Dublin you have to send a special messenger or arrange for the communication to go through the military. I will tell the House of an experience of my own. I serve on a committee which is raising funds to get some of these wretched ex-service men out of Ireland, where their lives and property are not safe. We endeavoured through the post to get into communication with a clergyman in a local parish. We wrote two letters to him and we sent a telegram, but we got no answer. They were all held up, and the only way in which we could communicate with the clergyman was by sending a letter through the War Office and the military authorities. I shall be surprised if the House is satisfied to allow things to continue in that state.

Take the Dublin Metropolitan Police. They are carrying on, but they are not functioning. I doubt if the Government can rely upon them to arrest anybody, because they are afraid and because they do not believe the Government is supporting them. That is the real reason. The Lord Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary are in Ireland. Can they move about? Can they attend functions and fetêes? No, they are prisoners in their own houses, just as much prisoners as if they were convicted and under penal servitude. They cannot go out except with armoured cars and with armed lorries escorting them. What of the officials? It is well known that they are prisoners in the Castle and that they take their exercise inside the Castle. They cannot go out. If they do go out they are murdered like Mr. Bell or shot at like the gentleman who was shot at this morning. There is, however, one institution which functions very well, namely, the Republican post in Dublin. They send letters through their own post office. What has the Government to say to that? Are they going to sit down and allow people in these islands to establish a post office of their own, with their own postmark and their own stamp? It is incredible that any Government can stand by and allow such things to go on. Take another instance. What have the Government done about the refusals of the dockers to land cargo in Ireland? As far as I can see, they have done nothing. They have hesitated. They have employed a certain number of soldiers to unload munitions, but they have taken no decided line. They have not said to these dockers, "Either you carry out your ordinary work and enable the railways as common carriers to perform the duties which they are pledged to perform or you must leave our service." So far as I know nothing has been done, and they have accepted the position in the hope that some day the dockers may be graciously pleased to unload the munitions.

Unless the Government take decided action they cannot expect anyone to support them in Ireland. Unless they make up their mind that they will carry operations through they will get no support. Take the strike on the railways. I hope that when the representative of the Government answers he will be able to tell us what is the Government's policy in regard to the railway strike in Ireland, or the threats of a strike. I see in the newspapers—it may be untrue, and, therefore, I do not want to misrepresent the Government—that if the railwaymen refuse to carry the troops, police and munitions, the Government are going to shut down the railways in Ireland.

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. and gallant Member obtained leave to move the Adjournment in order to "discuss matters connected with the recent occurrences in Londonderry and Dublin." A railway strike all over Ireland does not come within that description.

Colonel ASHLEY

At Broadstone Station, in Dublin, they are striking against carrying troops and police, and I want to know whether the Government are going to allow a section of the workmen in Dublin at Broadstone Station to prevent the troops and police from using that station and that terminus, or whether they are going to work the railways themselves. Last year we had a railway strike in this country and the Government did splendid work. They organised the railways and ran them for the benefit of the community, and I submit that the same policy should be followed at Broadstone Station in Dublin, and that the Government, instead of closing up that station, should say, "No. Our duty as a Government is to maintain the communications open, and we will see, by volunteer and other means, that the troops are carried from that station; we will not allow any other body to usurp the functions which ought to rest in the Executive Government, and we will see that anybody who wishes to travel shall have a chance of doing so." The situation in Dublin is not the ordinary situation with which we were faced years ago. It is complicated by the fact that the Transport Workers' Union, who have their headquarters there, and who dominate the labour in that city, indeed who control, I think, a very large percentage of the municipal representation of the city, are allies to the industrial workers of the world. Therefore, it is not only the local manifestation in Dublin with which you have to deal, but you have to provide for a foreign organisation which is using the transport workers of Dublin and the unrest there in order to create disturbances in this country and thereby to hit this country.

The Chief Secretary, when he went over to Dublin quite recently, talked a great deal about conciliation. It is no use talking conciliation with the Sinn Feiners and the assassins. When a wounded tiger is attacking you it is no use offering him bread and milk, you have to shoot him with a rifle and shoot him very quickly, and it is just the same with these assassins and these people who will have nothing to do with the British Government. I am not advocating that they should all be shot, but I do say that firmness is the only thing that will convince them that we right and they are wrong, all this conciliation talk and the talk about the hands of friendship might do very well if you were dealing with Englishmen or other reasonable people, but it only enables these Irishmen to laugh at you. They think no more of you for it, but they think the less and you do not advance your cause by one single inch. The Government has sent troops to Dublin and to Londonderry and they have sent marines to the coastguard stations. But they have sent these troops and marines with their hands tied behind their backs. It is no use having troops or marines unless they have power to act. Troops can do very little. There was great criticism in this House some weeks ago because a party of British soldiers on sentry duty were overpowered by a sudden attack of Sinn Feiners in some office in a street in Dublin. I submit that unless you give these British troops or the officers in charge of them some further power to take the initiative you do not give them any chance when they are attacked by the Sinn Feiners. Take the position of the sentry. He is walking up and down, and half-a-dozen civilians come up to him and surround him. He may shoot them, but if he does it is murder. Therefore these surprise attacks on the military are inevitable. If you want to put the police and military on some footing to deal with these men you must give them some power of saying to these people who approach them, "Unless you halt and keep a certain distance we will shoot." But to go on as at present allowing troops to go out without being allowed to do that is simply courting disaster, as the Sinn Feiners know, no matter how many troops you sent.

Take another instance in which I think the Government have been behaving in a most extraordinary way. The House will recollect that last autumn there was a declaration made that the prisoners in Mountjoy Prison, Dublin, would not be released if they went on hunger strike. The Government said that if they went on hunger strike they might starve if they liked. That was a perfectly definite thing. In the middle of April Sir Neville Mac-ready, starting a new regime, went over, and we had a wholesale gaol delivery of hunger strikers. Sixty-six men were let out, from one-third to one-half of these being men who had been convicted of offences. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, if my recollection serves me, first said they were not going to let out anybody who had been convicted. Then next day, having had further information from Dublin, he said that they had let them out. At any rate, the impression left on our mind was that the Government did not intend to let out those who had been convicted of offences, but intended only to let out those who had been arrested on suspicion, and that if a man had been convicted he would be kept in prison even if he went on hunger strike. Since then sixteen persons on hunger strike who were convicted by court martial under the Defence of the Realm Regulations have been released. How can you expect to govern a country, especially a country like Ireland, if you release anybody who is sent to prison who chooses to go on hunger strike, even though he has been convicted, by a properly constituted tribunal, of some offence against the laws of this country? Everybody sees that if he goes on hunger strike for three or four days he can stave off all punishment.

Now as regards ex-service men. Many of these men have been treated very badly because they are ex-service men. These men who went at the call of England to fight for her are receiving no special protection, and their lives are made a hell to them. Is that a right way for this great country to requite the services of these men who went to fight our battles when we were in grave danger? When the Armistice was signed I was proud to be an Englishman. This country was at the pinnacle of its power. It was respected by every country in the world. We had carried the burden of this great war on our shoulders and had come out victorious. Now, during the last twelve months, we hale been neglecting Ireland. We have been neglecting to take strong measures. We have slipped down from that pinnacle, and all the nations of the world are pointing the finger of scorn at Great Britain, because she is not able to rule and maintain her authority in a small island which is within sixty miles of her shore and contains fewer than four million inhabitants. They say, "How can we respect a country that claims to rule over to big a portion of the globe if in either Derry or Dublin they allow mob rule in one case and republican rule in another, and take no steps to stop it?" It would not be in order to go into the question of the Home Rule Bill, or whether it is good for the cause of law and order in Dublin or Derry, but my firm conviction is that, unless the Government take immediate steps to strengthen the powers which the Irish Government possess of arrest, and imposing penalites for carrying arms, and indeed go as far as martial law, we shall get no safety for personal property in Ireland. Martial law is not popular in this country, and rightly so. But the security of a country and the security of property and individual liberty are more precious than anything, and personally I would not hesitate for a moment to proclaim martial law in Ireland, because I am strongly of opinion that that is the only way to deal with the grave and menacing situation with which we are confronted.

Major O'NEILL

In rising to second this Motion I do not in any way wish to talk of making an attack on the Government, because I realise, as I am sure everybody in this House realises, that the Government to-day in Ireland are faced with a situation, the difficulty of which it would be impossible to exaggerate. Indeed, I doubt whether the Government of any country has ever been faced with a more supremely complex and difficult problem than that which the present Government has to face in Ireland. Consequently, in any remarks which I may make I am sure that my right hon. Friend (Mr. Bonar Law) will appreciate the fact that I do realise that he is up against an extraordinarily difficult situation. When we come to consider the methods which have been adopted for dealing with it, there are, I think, many causes for dissatisfaction, at any rate, on the part of those who live in Ireland. Let me take the terrible case of the city of Derry. As has been said, there were indications that this kind of thing was likely to arise. Weeks, if not months ago, the Government must have known that that city, perhaps above all others in Ireland, is charged with an atmosphere of electricity. Its population is composed practically half Sinn Fein on the one hand and half Loyalists and Unionists on the other, and the Government must have known that if there was one place in the country where party fights and sectarian differences were likely to come to the point of conflict it was in that city. In addition to that, there have recently been provocative incidents in the city. For the first time for many years the local government of Derry is in different hands from those which controlled it for many years; in fact, the present mayor of the city is a Sinn Feiner. Only a short time ago the Corporation of Derry adopted a resolution to erase from the Roll of Freemen the name of the present Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, not only because he was Lord-Lieutenant, but because in Lord French there is represented one of the greatest soldiers of the Empire, and a man who, in those terribly anxious days when our small Army was standing against fearful odds, offered successful resistance, and was the embodiment of the spirit of our country. That man is selected in a city where half the population are strong adherents of everything for which the Empire stands, and he is insulted by being erased from the Roll of Freemen of the city.

9.0 P.M.

That is the kind of thing which leads to provocation. Yet in face of these warnings the Government did not take adequate measures to prevent an outbreak in the city. This afternoon the Leader of the House told me that the troops were considered by the military authorities to be sufficient to deal with any disorder. Surely the very fact that disorder has taken place during the last few days, that men have been shot down in every quarter of the city, and that the city has been entirely under the control of armed civilians, is proof that the military forces were not sufficient? Something has been said about martial law. Martial law is a term which is often misunderstood and misrepresented by the ordinary civilian. I do not know what martial law really means in a case of this sort, but I have always understood it to mean, broadly, that you place the responsibility for the maintenance of law and order, not under the ordinary control of civilians, but under the control of a military force. I would suggest to the Leader of the House that, after the recent events in Derry, the time has come when something in the nature of military control should be established, at least in that city, so that law-abiding people—they belong to all parties, for I have no doubt that there are Sinn Feiners and Nationalists in Derry who would welcome any action on the part of the Government which would put the city in a state reasonably fit for law-abiding people—may have the protection which is their right. If martial law be a remedy, or whatever may be the remedy, I would urge the Government to adopt it without further delay.

Arising out of this, there is a point to which I would refer, and that is the increasing frequency, during the last few weeks and months, of the incursions of Sinn Fein into the North-East of Ulster. These riots in Derry began in that way. There have been attacks on workmen returning from the shipyards. Police barracks in the very heart of North-East Ulster have been burnt and destroyed. An attack was made on the town of Down-patrick not long ago, and a Protestant clergyman who most gallantly went to try to deal with the raiders was shot and seriously wounded. That kind of thing creates an atmosphere of terrible provocation to those who constitute the great majority of the population in that area. There is a great incentive to the loyal majority to adopt measures of retaliation. I am glad to say that up to the present the great majority of the people of North-East Ulster, who are Unionists in politics, have adopted a most laudable restraint. If any words of mine can reach them, I most earnestly trust that above all else they will maintain that restraint, for I would be the last to look with satisfaction upon the prospect of anything like civil war between the different religions in the North of Ireland; on the contrary, I should look upon it as one of the most appalling tragedies that could possibly occur in Ireland now. On the other hand, if the Government cannot produce sufficient troops, which seems almost incredible, I suggest to them that they should adopt some means of organising in order to help them, the majority of the loyal population in those parts of the country. I am perfectly certain, if the Government were to issue an appeal for help, if they really have reached such a terrible state that they, as representing the British Empire, have not got the forces with which to maintain order, there would be a very fine response. But if they do that, they must do it, recognising fully the position of the people who may respond, and by putting them in such a position that if they do incur great risks in helping the Government, and if they should lose their lives, their wives and families and dependants will be properly provided for, and if they are injured, that they should receive proper pensions. I can only suggest such a thing as a last resort, because, after all, it is not the duty of the loyalists in the North-East of Ulster to protect their province. It is the duty of the Government to protect the province of Ulster, or any other part of the United Kingdom, and to see that within its boundaries a proper state of law and order is maintained. If the Government do not take reasonable steps, there is, and believe me I am speaking no thoughtless words, very grave danger of a real conflict between armed mobs of the opposing factions. As I said just now, I should look upon nothing as a more terrible calamity for Ireland than anything of that sort. You have only got to look back at the terrible days of the Rebellion of 1798 in Ireland, to realise what an appalling state of affairs would result if anything like a conflict between half-disciplined mobs took place anywhere in that country.

My hon. and gallant Friend who moved has referred in detail to various episodes which have taken place recently in Dublin, culminating in the attack to-day upon Mr. Roberts, the Assistant Commissioner of the Royal Irish Constabulary. I am not going into those incidents in detail, but what strikes the average man about them is that all those attacks upon British forces in Ireland, call it garrison or whatever you like, the representatives of British connection in Ireland, are almost without exception successful. That is not a very edifying position for the great British Empire to have to face in any parts of its Dominions, and more particularly, perhaps, in Ireland, where, through long years of experience, it might be expected to know what would take place. When you get such things as the holding up of a lorry full of soldiers by armed men, and compelling them to get out of the lorry and to line up against the wall to be jeered at by the on looking population, and to be deprived of their arms, and, after being searched, to be allowed to continue with the lorry, and go away, those are not the sort of incidents that increase the respect of any section of people in Ireland for the way Great Britain is able to manage its armed forces. Only a few weeks ago we had an equally pitiful spectacle, from the military point of view, of an armed guard of soldiers, in the middle of the City of Dublin, overpowered by civilians who carried revolvers, and who succeeded in defeating the guard and getting away with all their arms and ammunition, including, I believe, a Lewis gun. This, of course, is a military matter for which the Secretary for War is rightly responsible. I hope he does realise that this House, or, at any rate, many Members of it, do regard the extraordinary way in which, on many occasions, soldiers have been defeated by civilians in Ireland as a most undesirable state of affairs, and one deserving of the most searching and earnest consideration and inquiry and action, disciplinary action, on the part of the military authorities.

I was going to say, what have the Government done? My hon. and gallant Friend asked what have they done, and he showed that, in his opinion, they had done very little. That is certainly my opinion as well, and I am perfectly convinced it is the opinion of the vast majority of people in Ireland, whether they be loyalists or whether they be people representative of Sinn Fein. A few months ago, I think in March, Sir Nevil Macready was sent to Ireland with apparently rather exceptional powers as Commander-in-Chief of the Forces, and also, apparently, as head of the police Forces in Ireland. About the same time, I forget whether it was earlier or later, a new Chief Secretary was appointed in the shape of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sunderland (Sir H. Greenwood), who now holds that office. People in Ireland, as the result of the declarations of the Government, expected that with this change in administration and in military command there would really be some definite tangible difference with regard to the way things were going on in that country. I know perfectly well you cannot expect miracles in a moment. General Macready, no doubt, is presumably taking measures which he hopes will result in better co-operation and co-ordination between military and police forces in Ireland, and I am not going to criticise unduly the fact that they are not showing as yet the result most people had hoped for. But I do think we are having to wait a rather long time before we get some result from the appointment of these new executive officers in Ireland. We Members who represent Irish constituencies constantly get communications from our friends in various parts of Ireland, and I can assure the Leader of the House that, almost without exception, those letters express terrible concern at the way in which, so far as the ordinary man can see, things are still going from bad to worse, and with really no result whatever from the changes to which I have referred. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman or the Attorney-General for Ireland or whoever replies on behalf of the Government—I will not be presumptuous or stupid enough to ask them to tell the House in detail the kind of measures which General Macready is taking—to give us some account of what has been done and some idea that in the near future these measures will be effective. Secrecy, no doubt, is a most important feature in military operations; that was proved to demonstration in the late War. But I hope he will be able to hold out to the people, to the vast majority of the people as I believe, a hope of a better state of affairs, and that in the immediate future these measures will really have some definite result and will produce something better than what we have had so far.

We read every day in the newspaper that military forces are being poured into Ireland; we hear of large reinforcements every day and we cannot help asking ourselves what these reinforcements of troops are doing, where they are, and why are not the results visible from their operation. During the last few days we have been discussing the Home Rule Bill. We are told that that Bill is to bring peace to Ireland. I firmly hope it may, but it is no good shouting peace when there is no peace. We are told that this Bill is going to bring union to Ireland, but it is no good talking about union where there is no union. I hope there will be union some day, but it does not exist now. I am not going to discuss such matters as those which have recently happened in Derry. But, certainly, they are not the sort of thing that is likely to lead to a rapid union between the people of Ireland and this country. Take this instance of a young ex-soldier. He was not shot in a street riot; he was taken away and bound and deliberately murdered by Sinn Feiners. His father was well known in the district as a prominent Unionist, but this boy had been away at the War and had taken no part in that. He did not care about any question of politics; he was home on leave. That sort of thing is not going to lead to the union of the North and South of Ireland, whether by means of a Home Rule Bill or through any other source, and for that reason, if for no other, if I may touch upon the general question for a moment, I am sure the Government realises it, as I most earnestly submit, that it is in the general interest of the country, vitally important that they should adopt the necessary measures to bring about a better state of things. It seems to me that there are only two alternatives. It raises a most serious issue. Either the Government should abrogate the authority of government in Ireland and recognise, as the Sinn Feiners are always reminding them, that they are in fact in a state of war; or they must take measures which will be very drastic, and these measures must be maintained until such time as the Irish people have been reduced to a state of affairs in which they will be fit to receive whatever new form of government may be given to them. They must take measures which, so far as they can ensure, will be adequate to produce a better state of affairs than the one which exists at the present time. As things stand at present they are a scandal to our Empire, a reproach to British ability to govern and they are reducing my poor distracted country to a state of chaos, ruin, and desolation.

Sir T. BRAMSDON

I suppose it would be impossible to bring a greater indictment against a Government than that which has been so ably put forward by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just addressed the House. It strikes me as having been completely justified by the facts that they have stated. They have shown that the Government of Ireland at present does not exist. There is no Imperial Government in Ireland. What government there is, is government by the Sinn Feiners. As the hon. and gallant Gentleman has just pointed out, there are many things in which the Sinn Feiners are in the ascendency. They have their own judges and their own courts; they carry out their own laws. The laws made in Great Britain do not exist in Ireland or, at any rate, in many parts of it. The shocks which have been caused here by the crimes which have been committed have been very great These crimes are simply monstrous. And I am going to make the bold statement that there is no country in the world at the present time which is worse governed than Ireland. What is the reason? It is mainly that the people in the South of Ireland have no confidence in the government of the country. If they had confidence they would obey the law. What has the Government done? They have deliberately introduced a Home Rule Bill which is not wanted by anyone and is not trusted by anyone. If that Bill is ever passed, if it ever becomes law, it cannot be carried out in the South of Ireland. What is the use of the Government trying to carry out their jurisdiction in that way? They are neither one thing nor the other. There is neither firmness nor conciliation. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has spoken of martial law. Martial law would be even a relief from what exists at the present time. I have listened to the account of the crimes committed in the various parts of Ireland and I have heard before the answer of the Government. In effect it is a statement that it is true that these crimes have been committed, and that there is sufficient force in that particular locality to deal with the matter.

Colonel ASHLEY

And there have been no arrests.

Sir T. BRAMSDON

Day by day we hear of these cases of murder, of arson, of theft, and of all the crimes that bad-thinking people could commit. It is impossible to conceive of any nation being carried on in such a way as Ireland is at the present time. I am very glad the hon. and gallant Gentleman has introduced this Motion, but I am sorry that there is not a better attendance in the House to listen to this grave indictment. What answer can the Attorney-General for Ireland give? I do not expect any sufficient answer. It will probably be the same as he has given in the past, namely, that there is sufficient force available, and that they are trying to do the best they can. What can all that mean? It means leaving the situation as it has been left now for too long a time. What I do hope is that the Government will now take this matter into their hands one way or the other, and if they are not able to govern Ireland either by firmness or conciliation, the sooner they put it into the hands of someone else the better.

Major Sir K. FRASER

With great diffidence I address this House on the Irish question. I have studied the subject, and given it a great deal of thought, and I wish to make one or two suggestions. I suggest that the Government should forthwith set up martial law, and, not only that, but that the country should be divided into military districts, and that the officers in charge of those districts should be Irishmen. If you cannot find Irishmen suitable for officers, you must find officers who served with the Irishmen during the Great War. The Irishmen did quite well in the War, and I say put officers, if you can, who served with the Irishmen at the front in these districts in Ireland. But this cannot go on for long; it is only for a short time. Secondly, I would venture to suggest that we should get on with the Bill for the better government of Ireland, and put Ireland under martial law until we can put this Bill on the Statute Book; and the sooner we do that the better. It is a question in Ireland of religion, and nothing else. They are loyal to the Empire. These Sinn Feiners are loyal You can lead them anywhere if you take them the right way. France has been through the same trouble, and so has England. Religion is the long and short of this question. What we have got to do is to govern Ireland while we are in charge of it, put it under martial law, and get the Home Rule Bill on the Statute Book as soon as we can. I speak as a strong Unionist.

Mr. MYERS

If in the observations I may make I do not seem to follow the line of the Mover and Seconder, I hope it will not be thought by the House that I favour, or support, or encourage anything in the nature of violence from any point of view. If any single word I uttered inside this House or outside of it moved in that direction, I should wish for some penalty. The speech of the Mover of the Motion seemed to me to be regrettable in one or two respects. It had much too bellicose an attitude, and I do not think a solution of this problem can come in that way. One particular observation which the hon. and gallant Gentleman made has an element of truth in it, except that it does not apply the way round that he put it. He mentioned that at the time of the Armistice this country was at the pinnacle of its power, and that from that time forward a measure of retrogression from that standard has been noticeable, and he attributed it to the fact that in the eyes of the nations it was due to our inability to govern a small island close to our own shores. I do agree that the frame of mind of the world as a whole towards this country is not as healthy or as encouraging as it was at the time of the Armistice. That is not due to the fact that we are unable to govern Ireland. In my judgment, it is due to the fact that we are unable to apply to Ireland those great moral principles for which the War was said to be waged.

I think also both the Mover and the Seconder were very illogical in the attitude they took up on this question. They deplored the failure of the methods that are being employed, and then they urged the extension of those same methods. They sounded a note of despair in respect of the futility of the operations that are proceeding, and they make a demand for those operations to be intensified—an absolutely illogical position. I think the outstanding fact of the situation at the moment is the change of feeling in Ireland. During the operation of the War no such feelings prevailed in Ireland as prevails now. [HON MEMBERS: "What about the Rebellion?"] The Irishmen who came to the Colours in response to the call is an evidence of the fact that a better feeling prevailed then than prevails now. Hon. Members from this House joined the Colours and hon. Members from this House went over the seas for the purpose of conciliating Irish opinion on the side of the Allies. That feeling has changed to such an extent that we have heard in this House from the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr T. P. O'Connor) and the hon. Member for the Falls Division of Belfast (Mr. Devlin) a declaration that if they went over the seas to-day to address public meetings, as they did a couple of years back, they could not now get a hearing, whereas at that time they enjoyed an enthusiastic reception.

Mr. PEMBERTON BILLING

Labour leaders in this House have said the same.

Mr. MYERS

I did not hear the interruption of the hon. Member, and I very much question if it would be worth the trouble of a reply. We cannot detach the circumstances in Ireland to-day from the circumstances that have created them. The circumstances to-day are not the product of a moment; they are the product of a deep-seated injustice, which has been intensified by modern events for which this country is very largely responsible. I agree there are deep feelings of long-standing. The Irish people cannot forget that there are one-half of the population overseas, that there are nearly half-a-million fewer homesteads in Ireland to-day than there were 50 or 60 years ago.

Mr. BILLING

May I ask whether the hon. Member is in order in generalising on Ireland and whether he should not deal with the Motion before the House?

Mr. SPEAKER

I understand the hon. Member is making a deep investigation into the causes which have brought about the results which we have seen and are discussing.

Mr. MYERS

The Irish people cannot forget that during this last half century their population has declined by 46 per cent. at a time when the population of Great Britain has increased by 147 per cent. The Irish people cannot forget that during this last 50 or 60 years the male population in that country has diminished by nearly 2,000,000. All these are bedrock grievances under which the Irish people suffer.

Mr. PALMER

Do they excuse murder and outrage?

Mr. MYERS

Coming to the events of more recent times, we can say that modern troubles in Ireland date back to the year 1914. Certain promises were made to Ireland at that time, a certain decision was arrived at, and during the period of the War the olive branch was held forth to the Irish people, that if they on their part would agree to take certain steps, certain pledges would be honoured and certain privileges would be given. The fact that these have not matured has intensified feeling in Ireland, and during the period of 6 years since 1914 not only have we failed to give to Ireland what we have promised them, but we have taken from Ireland all the time. From the point of view of revenue and taxation, Ireland raised in revenue in 1919 £37,000,000.

Mr. R. McNEILL

On a point of Order. Will it be open to subsequent speakers to point out the disastrous effect upon Ireland of having never been conquered by the Roman Empire?

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is opening a door which others can push at, and which will widen the general scope of the Debate. I hope he will bear in mind that the House only gave leave for a discussion to-day, in order to discuss the particular events that have occurred in Londonderry and Dublin, and which are fresh in our minds. If he wants a general discussion on Irish matters, the proper time to take that is on the Irish Estimates, when an opportunity comes for a general review. To-day we are only discussing these particular events, the immediate causes which led up to them, and the possible remedies to apply.

Mr. MYERS

I was not aware that had transgressed. I believe in the desirability of endeavouring to discover causes for the troubles that prevail in Ireland, for we shall never effect a remedy until we discover the cause or causes. However, I will respect your ruling, Sir, and endeavour to keep to the point as closely as I can. The hon. and gallant Member who moved the Motion recited a number of outrages and occurrences which had taken place in Ireland. Once more I repeat that these occurrences are the natural result of others of a similar character. I want to suggest the tremendous provocation that has been given in Ireland.

Colonel ASHLEY

What provocation did those seventeen unhappy policemen give who have been murdered?

Mr. MYERS

I led off by declaring that I hoped nothing I would say would be taken to indicate that I justified in the slightest degree anything in the nature of violence, either in Ireland or anywhere else, but what I am going to attempt to prove is that the policy of violence which has been in operation is absolutely futile here and now. In 1918 in Ireland there were 1,107 arrests, 260 districts were raided by the police and military, there w ere 81 baton and bayonet charges, and 91 men and women were deported to English gaols without trial. In the first nine months of 1918 there were 5,588 raids on private houses

Mr. BILLING

How many murders during the same period?

Mr. MYERS

Murder was unknown in Ireland at that time, and Sinn Fein, as we understand it to-day, was hardly recognised as a force in the country.

HON. MEMBERS

Oh, oh!

Mr. IRVING

Why cannot you let somebody speak in answer to your views?

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member may have an opportunity later on, and if he desires to speak he should stand up.

Mr. IRVING

I suggest that you might obtain as courteous a hearing for this side as you have for the other.

Mr. MYERS

It was stated in this House on the 30th October of last year that from May, 1916, up to that time 43 newspapers had been suppressed in Ireland, and that in the 12 months ended the 30th October last year 71 public meetings had been prohibited in Ireland.

Major MOLSON

On a point of Order. The hon. Member has been speaking a long time and has not mentioned Derry or Dublin yet. The Mover of the Motion was pulled up as soon as he departed a hair's breadth from the Motion, as regards Irish railways, yet we have not heard a single word from the hon. Member, who is now speaking, about Derry or Dublin. Is it your wish, Sir, that he is to continue?

Mr. SPEAKER

I have pointed out already to the hon. Member that the subject of our discussion to-night is limited to those disturbances which have taken place recently. I understand his argument to be that the reason for them is that certain things happened in 1916.

Mr. MYERS

I am coming up-to-date.

Mr. SPEAKER

If the hon. Member would come nearer to the time we are now discussing, I think the House would be inclined to listen more patiently.

Mr. BILLING

Is it not a fact, Sir, that if on three occasions you have to call an hon. Member to Order he should resume his seat? This is the third time you have done so.

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member, I think, knows that.

Mr. MYERS

In addressing this House my experience is somewhat limited, but I have worked on the assumption that so long as one proceeded without the interference of Mr. Speaker one was within the boundary of the discussion before the House, and one can afford to ignore both interjections and interruptions of hon. Members so long as one keeps right with the Chair. Another provocative event which took place last year was that the military authorities in this country paraded tanks through the streets of Dublin on the anniversary of the 1916 rebellion. All these events which I have enumerated took place when crime, as we understand it now, did not prevail to anything like the same extent as to-day, but we have got to discover if we can what led up to those incidents which took place at that time.

I am going to touch upon a matter upon which I think I shall have the approval of hon. Members opposite. I believe the present condition of Ireland has very largely its origin in hon. Members on this side of the House not being willing and ready to stand by the position embodied in their own Act of Parliament passed in 1914, which did not receive the support of those on this side of the House that it ought to have done. From that time forward can be traced definitely but steadily things growing worse in Ireland. During that period there were labour troubles in this country; but if we had taken similar action in respect to Ireland; had they been as industrious and as willing to secure peace in Ireland as they were to secure industrial peace at home; and had they applied the same methods, the condition of Ireland to-day would not have been what it is. The question was asked in this House on the 30th of October, last year, to this effect: The Chief Secretary for Ireland was asked if there had been any inflammatory speeches in Ireland, and he replied that "he knew of no such speech." A report in "The Times" on the 14th of July last year set forth the statement that a speech had been made in Belfast by the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson), in which he said: If any attempt is made to revive or put into force the Home Rule Act, I will at once summon the Provisional Government. We on this side declare that the present trouble in Ireland is due to the conflict between what has been termed the Provisional Government in Ulster and that section of Ireland represented by the opposite side. We believe that the Provisional Government in Ulster and the Ulster Volunteers have been the medium through which a large number of Nationalist Volunteers were formed in other parts of Ireland. This kind of thing has been permitted to develop without action in this House, and if a thousandth part of the action which is advocated now had been taken then it would have put a stop to the Ulster Volunteers in those days. Three generations of Irish patriots have gone to their graves, and they have been promised definitely Home Rule for Ireland and that certain things would be put into operation. An attempt was made in 1914 to do certain things, and it was never supported to the extent it should have been; hence very largely the trouble to-day. There is besides all this the expression of opinion by the Irish people themselves. In December, 1918, we had a General Election, and nearly one-half of the votes recorded in Ireland were recorded for Sinn Fein representatives, and in addition to that 25 Sinn Fein Members were returned unopposed, for whom no votes were cast.

We may not like that expression of opinion and we may not agree with it, but it cannot be ignored. We have to face the facts of the situation and instead of endeavouring to throttle the free expression of opinion by the Irish people on those lines, what the Government ought to do is to endeavour to conciliate as far as possible the definite and constitutionally expressed will of the Irish people. Nothing can be done and no problems can be solved by violence, and I agree that that applies both ways. It can be said that violence has never solved any problem, but that it always makes them. If we look at the condition of Europe to-day it is worse morally, materially, and from every point of view, than it was before the first shot was fired in 1914.

We have before us to-day problems which will take a generation to solve and which have arisen within the first four or five years of war. The more we intensify feeling in Ireland the worse the conditions there will become, and nothing short of the complete extermination of the Irish people can solve the Irish problem on the lines proposed by the Mover and Seconder of this Resolution. Repression always did produce revolt and it always will. The present condition of things in Ireland is due not so much to the provocative events of the last month, but to the studied, settled and deliberate policy of repression and persecution in Ireland on the part of the Governments of this country.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Denis Henry)

I regret that my right hon. Friend, the Chief Secretary, owing to the short notice which it is necessary to give for a Motion of this kind, is unable to be present. He is detained on important duties in Ireland, and it therefore falls to me to say a few words in reply to the criticisms which have been levelled against the Irish Government. I recognise the fairness with which the Mover and Seconder of this Resolution have put the facts on which they rely before the House. I do not minimise the gravity of those facts or the responsibility that rests upon anyone connected with the Irish Government in connection with them. I will submit to the House reasons why the position in Ireland differs very much without reservation from the position of any other country in the world. I would first like to express for myself and on behalf of the Government, my gratitude to my hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Mid-Antrim (Major O'Neill), for the powerful appeal he made to the people he represents and to others with whom his words carry weight, to keep anything in the nature of sectarian strife out of this trouble. We have enough trouble in Ireland, God knows, without introducing that and I hope the appeal which the hon. and gallant Member has made will bear good fruit.

The principal indictment which has been made against the Irish Government is in regard to the condition of things in Londonderry at the present time. Personally I have had exceptional opportunities of knowing something about Londonderry, and I think I may say that I know almost every lane and street there. I was born in that county and I have practised on that circuit for 35 years, and I may say that I have never known a time when at some period of the year there was not some very considerable disturbance in that city. If I were old enough to carry my recollection back to 1688 I think I should be able to say that there were very few intervening years during that period in which there was not a disturbance very much of the type complained of at the present time. The explanation is simple. It is a city with a great history and it has been the battle ground of contending parties for many a day. It is an old city. Everyone has some kind of rabbit hole from which to emerge to discharge a revolver, and at a moment's notice disappear again. But there is one matter with regard to the disturbance in Derry which differs altogether from the complaints which have been made in respect to the city of Dublin. They differ in this way from any of the cases of shooting men in the back. After all, there is an element of fighting there. The Dublin death-roll altogether is, as a rule, on the side of the unfortunate metropolitan police. When you examine into the circumstances of Derry you will find that some of the people who have unfortunately met their end are marked with the letter "U," while a good many are marked with the letters "S.F." The position is an entirely different one. What has been done in Derry? The General Commanding in Belfast has been directed by Sir Nevil Macready to proceed there. He has the fullest authority to requisition such troops as he considers necessary for the purpose of keeping public order. He is at present in Derry, and all the requisitions that he has made have been complied with. I have authority for saying that if he makes further requisitions those requisitions will also be complied with.

Major O'NEILL

Have the troops arrived?

Mr. HENRY

I am informed that a battalion of troops has arrived in Londonderry. There are two in Belfast. At the moment the General calls for them they will at once proceed to Derry. His view up to the present is that he is perfectly able to deal with the situation without additional troops. May I point out to my hon. and gallant Friend—because his experience of these matters is larger than mine, my experience of fighting has not been very extensive—that it is extremely difficult indeed for soldiers, and especially soldiers recently recruited, to go into a strange city and deal with disturbances in the streets, to deal with shooting from the roofs of houses, to deal with people who come from each side of the street at the same time. The House perhaps will know that in Derry the streets are extremely steep and old and narrow. It is, I say, extremely difficult to deal with that kind of situation, for the soldiers cannot pursue a straggler as in an ordinary way he might be pursued. They have taken precautions at points where it is essential, but the peculiarity of the city is this: that there is no point at which a disturbance might not break out at any moment. Hon. Members who know the city and know the highly-spotted variety of these streets will realise the truth of what I am saying. You may have a disturbance at one side of the Foyle, and while you are dealing with that another will break out on the other side; while you are dealing with the two, a third may break out. It may be impossible to be in all these places at once. We are, however, doing everything that can possibly be thought of with tanks and armoured cars to keep order.

Let me come to the City of Dublin. As I say, the position of the City of Dublin is, to my mind, a very much graver one. I do not at all minimise the position in Derry, nor will the Irish Government relax their efforts to reduce it to a condition of peace. I hope that means may be found to adopt the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Mid-Antrim to call to the assistance of the authorities not loyal men of one party, or of the other party, but loyal men of all parties. I am glad to say that recently there was a very successful attempt made to utilise the men of that description in the way of keeping order. If they could be further utilised I shall be glad to see it done, and it will be of great assistance. Let me, then, deal with the position in Dublin. There there have been a large number of most cold-blooded murders, which have shocked even the people which call themselves Sinn Feiners. They have certainly shocked the feelings of any man who has any regard for Ireland, either Irishman or Britisher. We are all thoroughly ashamed of it. What is the position there? A man whom I had the honour and pleasure of knowing, the late Mr. Alan Bell, a great public servant, was dragged in broad daylight from a tramcar on his way to the Castle and murdered hi the street. There were 25 or 26 persons in that tramcar, all intelligent business men, some of them men in Government Departments. Yet we have been unable to get the slightest evidence to identify the 7 or 8 men who are responsible for that murder. It is easy for the Government to bring criminals to justice; if they have evidence it can be done. But it is impossible for the Government, notwithstanding the efforts they may make, unless they have the co-operation of peaceful citizens, to bring criminals to justice. We cannot make a case unless it is made for us by those who have had the opportunity of seeing the dastardly deed and of giving evidence.

As regards the bulk of the other murders, the people which are really effective for the purpose of tracing crime are the police and detectives. The Government and Government officials may be as hopeless as possible. The real instruments who trace crime and so discharge their duty are the Metropolitan police in Dublin and the detective department of the Metropolitan police. Does anyone suggest that they have been guilty of dereliction of duty? Does anyone suggest that the Royal Irish Constabulary have been guilty of dereliction of duty? They have given the lie to such assertion by the sacrifice of their lives. Is there any complaint against them? There may be a complaint against the Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—in some measure that depends upon ourselves. But here are the men who are really doing the work, who are trying to elicit the information. They are marked down and shot. Notwithstanding all our efforts to try and get the information necessary in order to bring the murderers to justice, we in most cases have been absolutely unable to do so. It depends largely upon the creation of healthy public opinion in Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for the Spen Valley spoke of people in the South preferring the courts of the South and of Sinn Fein to other courts. I do not think my hon. Friend realised that he was speaking a little blindly. Does he suggest that anyone in the South in the possession of property, anyone who values his peace of mind, or a peaceful residence in his own house, is prepared to accept the Courts of Sinn Fein instead of the Courts constituted by His Majesty?

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

They are doing it!

10.0 P.M.

Mr. HENRY

Because in two or three instances money has been returned is it suggested that this preference for Sinn Fein courts exists? All I can say on that point is that those who stole knew where to find. If the Sinn Feiners have the power to put down crime, why do they not put down the crimes which are bringing disgrace upon the name of Ireland? Ireland used to be called the "Island of Saints." I may well describe that title now as obsolete. What has His Majesty's Government done to try to bring about a different state of affairs? They have sent to Ireland Sir Nevil Macready. In his selection we have certainly a man who is suitable for Ireland. He was at the head of the police in this great City of London. He discharged his duty with every ability and courage. He is experienced not merely in connection with the police but also in military matters. He has been sent to Dublin with the fullest authority to call for assistance and to take such steps as he may think desirable in the interests of peace. I can assure the House that Sir Nevil Macready, a brave and distinguished gentleman, is by no means a fire-eater. He is not anxious to apply his military experience and military power. He is perfectly willing to deal with matters reasonably, and, at the same time, to put down disorder with a strong hand where a strong hand is necessary. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Fylde (Colonel Ashley) spoke of the lack of initiative given to the troops. I want to make it clear what is the present position. It has been asserted over and over again that instructions have been issued to the constabulary not to shoot, and not to shoot with effect. I can assure the House that no such instructions have been issued. The instructions that have been issued are that they are to deal with an attacking party as they would attack enemies in the field. They are to behave in precisely the same way as they would do on the field of battle. If they have reason to suspect that a person approaching them is in possession of deadly weapons they are to call on him to put up his hands, and, failing his doing so, they are to fire upon him. It is impossible to give more explicit instructions. My hon. and gallant Friend cited the case in King's Inn, Dublin, where a sentinel on duty was taken by surprise. I think my hon. Friend has given a rather erroneous view of what occurred. I am exceedingly familiar with the place, and I am sure my right hon. Friend the Member for the Duncairn Division of Belfast has not forgotten it, because it is a portion of the King's Inn—an Inn corresponding to the Inns of Court in this city. There were stationed there, in an interior building, a number of soldiers. There was one on duty near a footpath crossing the garden to another street. From just round the corner a man came suddenly upon him, revolver in hand, and held him up. He had no opportunity of shooting or of doing anything. I am, however, certain the result of that experience will be that the forces will not be caught napping again. It was a salutary lesson, and I am sure it will have useful results.

Colonel ASHLEY

May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman for one moment, to ask if we are to understand that the military, if anyone approaches them in a threatening manner and they shoot, and shoot with effect, will be supported by this Government?

Mr. HENRY

Certainly, they will be supported, and it cannot be too widely known. I should now like to say a few words with reference to some other matters connected with what the Government have done in trying to bring about peace. This House has given to the Constabulary increased pay, and not increased too much, having regard to what they have to do. I have been asked by hon. Members from time to time in this House what is proposed to be done with a view to recovering compensation that has been awarded to these men's widows and children by the Courts of Law in Ireland. I know that any award that is made is but a poor compensation for the loss of a brave father or a brave husband, but, so far as the Government can help to smooth the path of those who are left behind, we undertake to do it. We propose to bring forward for the approval of the Cabinet, a measure enabling the money that has been awarded by the various tribunals to these widows and children to be deducted from the grants that are given to the various counties, and also enabling us to get direct, at the instance of these widows and children, at the rates, so as to avoid the attempt that is being made by the County Councils in many districts to evade payment of these legal awards. During the period which may necessarily elapse before these sums can be recovered—the legal difficulties may take up some little time—we propose to see that advances shall be made to the widows and children, if not of the entire money, at least of a substantial portion of it. As I have said, it is a poor compensation, but at any rate it will show that their efforts are appreciated by this House, and by His Majesty's Government, and it will help to cheer them on in the gallant fight that they are putting up in the cause of freedom and justice.

I am aware that the shortcomings of the Irish Government are many, but I can assure the House that it is a matter not merely of deep concern to the Members of the Irish Government, but to my right hon. Friend who sits beside me, who takes a very, very keen interest in it, and who, I am sure, feels as much as any other man in the United Kingdom the difficulties of the position. We shall continue to do our best. We may not be successful, but I am assured by those responsible in Ireland that they believe that better times are in store, and that there is every promise of a speedy improvement. They say, dealing with the question of cattle driving, that there has been a marked improvement. The number of convictions for cattle driving last month was 94, and a marked decrease in the number of cattle driving cases has taken place during that time. I know, as I have said, that we have many shortcomings, and we are conscious of the nature of the indictment that has been levelled against us by my two hon. and gallant Friends; but every Member of the Irish Government is doing all he can, recognising the solemn duty that is upon him and the trust reposed in him by this House.

Lord ROBERT CECIL

I do not wish to stand in the way of other hon. Members who may wish to address the House, but I confess, if my right hon. Friend will permit me to say so, that I listened to his speech with a little disappointment. I do not refer to the entertaining commencement, in which he conveyed the impression that a fight in Derry is looked upon in Ireland in a rather different way from that in which it is regarded by miserable Saxons in this country. Although I cannot quite accept his view that it is part of the ordinary daily life of an Irish country town, I agree with him that it is evidently a much less serious symptom of disorder than some of the events that have taken place in Dublin.

I do not think my right hon. Friend made clear to the House the real seriousness of the position in Dublin. It is the very fact that he complains of, that they cannot get evidence. It is not only that apparently anyone can go and shoot a policeman in Dublin if he so desires, but it is the fact that that crime is seen by hundreds of people—as he says, by 25 respectable persons in a tramcar—and yet the feeling of the populace is so much with the criminals and against the Government that you cannot get any evidence.

HON. MEMBERS

Terrorism!

Lord R. CECIL

That does not make it better, but worse, if it means that no one dares to give evidence for fear of being shot. Whatever it is, it makes very little difference to the seriousness of the position in Ireland, whether it is that no one dares to give evidence in support of the Government or that there is a widespread feeling against it.

It is the same thing with regard to the Sinn Fein courts in the South. My right hon. Friend says that Sinn Fein courts are conducted very fairly. I have no doubt he is quite right. I do not know anything about it, except that one hears, as many of us hear from those who come back from Ireland, accounts of these things. To me the most serious part is the extremely complete organisation which they apparently have in those courts. I saw a man to-day, who had actually been present in one of them, and he described it to me. He said there was a bench, and a priest presiding, with a barrister to advise him, a couple of merchants, a couple of farmers, and so on, a regular petty bench, apparently as well organised as an ordinary court. There were a number of solicitors practising before it. The King's courts were practically deserted. I do not know whether all that is true, but if it is, it shows a state of things of intense seriousness. It shows a complete reversal of everything that we are accustomed to in this country, and the Sinn Fein courts are carrying out what they conceive or represent to be justice, in place of the King's courts, which are absolutely deserted, and all this with apparently no protest and no resistance on the part of the population. It may be terror, it may be sympathy, but whatever it is, the situation is intensely serious. That is the situation which I am quite certain is really causing this grave misgiving and disquiet in the Members of this House. They see a situation which they think is intensely serious. They do not know what the Government is doing to meet it. Speech after speech is made from the Treasury Bench saying, "We are doing our best," like the pianist in the American story. "We assure you we will take every step we can. We have sent Sir Nevil Macready. Everything he asks for shall be done, and we hope something better will turn up in a short time." I am sure the House is very anxious to extend the utmost patience to the Government. They recognise the great difficulty. But I should have been more gratified, not to have the plans of the Government disclosed—no one wants that—but some evidence, if the Government is in possession of it, to show that there really is a revulsion of feeling beginning in Ireland or that there is some evidence that can be given to the House to show that their policy is beginning to have some success.

There is some force in what was said by a speaker on the other side; either you must have conciliation or you must have coercion. You cannot hope for success if you try a little coercion for a bit and then a little conciliation. I do not say which is the right policy. That is a matter which only those who are in possession of official information can judge. It may be that the coercive policy is not going to succeed. We had better know that as soon as possible if that is the view of the Government. It may be that conciliation may have to take its place. We ought to know what is the policy of the Government in that respect. The thing which is really fatal to success is locking up men, convicting them before a court-martial and then letting them out. That is a perfectly hopeless way of governing any country. To proceed with a Bill by which you are going to transfer the whole executive power to the majority in the south and the west of Ireland, and at the same time to proceed with a vehement policy of coercion; I cannot conceive how a policy of that sort is going to succeed. I ask the Government to lay down clearly what their policy is in this respect and to abide by it, without flinching, and, above all, if they can, to give to this House some information, or the prospects of some information, which will enable us to feel some confidence that the policy which is now being pursued is having some good results, and that there is really a prospect of good government being restored in a most unhappy island.

Mr. INSKIP

The House listened with admiration to the speech of the Noble Lord in this as it does in other Debates, but when he sits down I am almost as perplexed as to what policy he advocates as he is as to the policy which the Government advocates. He appears to be content with any policy so long as it is only composed of one element, and he tells the House that although it is not for him to state a policy yet the position of a Government which attempts concilliation on the one hand and coercion on the other is an impossible one. I am not at all sure that the Noble Lord is really justified in adopting that position. I cannot see why conciliation cannot proceed side by side with a proper firmness in a difficult situation. I cannot help feeling that the notion that the Noble Lord leaves is that the policy of the Government, with which he is in such acute disagreement, in attempting to give that which Ireland is groping for at the present time, is the wrong policy. We know that he differs from the Government in that policy, but that hardly justifies him in holding up the Government, I will not say to obliquy, but to criticism becauses side by side with the policy in which the Government believes and in which I hope a great many Members of this House believe, the Government is determined that there shall be a repression of outrage and that they will use every power at their command to ensure that. The Noble Lord selects a certain criterion in the condition of Ireland which I should not have chosen as the most serious factor in the situation. He chooses to remark on the fact that in a great part of Ireland the King's Courts are deserted and Sinn Fein Courts are set up and apparently resorted to by the common folk. Perhaps that is a prejudice in favour of a crowded attendance in the King's Courts. Shin Fein may or may not have justice on their side, but they certainly have a human side, and I am not at all sure that it is not an attempt of Sinn Fein to impose upon the credulous Englishman and that there is no real seriousness in the Courts at all.

I read the other day an account of a judgment delivered, I think, by a Sinn Fein court in the County Clare, where the guilty parties were marooned on an island from which the police attempted to rescue them, and the police were promptly met with a fusillade of stones from the prisoners of the Sinn Fein court whom the police were attempting to rescue. That appears to me to suggest that both prisoners and court are combined in a conspiracy to laugh at the English nation and, possibly, also to amuse themselves with childish trivialities which need not disturb or even concern us. The outrages are the serious fact. No one recognises that more than those of us who support the Government in their policy of what I am not afraid to call conciliation in Ireland. What is the serious fact at the present time is that crime does not meet with a proper amount of condemnation in quarters where we should expect it to be condemned; and if there was the proper emphasis laid upon outrage, the hands of the Government would be strengthened in repressing it. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), who is not here to-night, used words which I cannot quote, but I am subject to the recollection of hon. Members in referring to them. He said that he could not and would not endorse the murder of innocent soldiers and policemen who were doing their duty, and we agree with him and hon. Members opposite agree, and yet we find that there are those opposite, as well as outside the House, who agree with the right hon. Gentleman when he deliberately asks the Government to refrain from the provocation, of which he holds them guilty, in sending ammunition to equip those who are going to put down those outrages. What is the use of condemning outrage and pouring out your sympathy with the victims if you will not allow the Government to come to their defence in conveying the weapons which will prevent outrage?

Mr. A. DAVIES (Clitheroe)

May I interrupt the hon. Gentleman to say that there is no section of the Labour party that subscribes to the assassination of soldiers or policemen, and I do not believe that there is any percentage of Members of this party who associated themselves with the railwaymen in refraining from carrying munitions and troops?

Mr. INSKIP

I am sure that the House has heard with the greatest possible gladness the statement of the hon. Member from the benches opposite, which is of the greatest importance, that there is a genuine desire that the Government should be assisted in carrying out the only policy with which the country will be contented as long as outrages of this kind exist. If that is the spirit in which hon. Members opposite are prepared to co-operate with the Government, I hope it will be the beginning of a new chapter in this connection. This Debate will have been useful if only because we have had the advantage of a declaration of that sort, and I hope we may have a similar declaration from other hon. Members as showing that the whole Labour party is united in giving support to the policy which has been outlined. I think I may say that if hon. Members opposite are prepared to co-operate with the Government in that way, I hope the Government will be prepared to make use of the undoubted force it has in the best elements of the Labour party in effecting conciliation, possibly even with Sinn Fein itself. I think it was in the conference with the Prime Minister the other day that a representative of the Labour party from Cork offered to use the Labour party in Ireland as a bridge to bring the Government and Sinn Fein together, and, although I am a Unionist and have fought for the principles of Unionism and Conservatism, I am prepared at this hour to bargain, if hon. Members around me who know so much more about Ireland than I do will allow me to say so—I am prepared to enter into a conference having a conciliatory object, even with those from whom we all profoundly differ, as we do differ from Sinn Fein. If there is one element in Ireland that has a steading influence and may profoundly affect the situation now, it is the influence of my hon. Friends around me. The hope of Ireland surely is the devotion of those who are her children. As long as that love and devotion exist I shall never despair of Ireland. I confess that I should be upheld with hope more strongly if I saw my hon. Friends, and indeed the Government, prepared to run greater risks in giving to Ireland that which the spirit of Ireland demands, rather than be content with a continuation of the present evils which we all deplore.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

The note struck in the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman has, at any rate, touched a note of sympathy in myself. I only wish that other Members had developed that theme. What we want to do in all parts of the House is to prevent bloodshed in Ireland. The hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke for the Government told us—and I am sure we were grateful—that the pensions of policemen's widows were to be increased. That is not what we want in this House. What we want to do is to prevent the creation of widows by these outrages. The troubles in Londonderry do very seriously affect public opinion on this side of the Irish Sea. People are horrified at this open fighting in a city of a so-called civilised country. What we want to know is this: When the troops arrive in Londonderry are they going to disarm the population, and is it going to be done impartially? In the Irish newspapers to-day there are very circumstantial accounts to the effect that the Unionists are walking about with rifles and equipment, quite illegally. They have not been called out by the Deputy-Lieutenant, but have taken their rifles out of their hiding holes. I understand that the Sinn Feiners in Derry are using revolvers, but that the Unionists have rifles. It takes two parties to make a fight, and if there is to be disarmament it ought to be impartial.

A very significant incident happened about three weeks ago in that neighbourhood. The house of a prominent Unionist, Mr. Watson, of Beech Park, was raided—

Mr. MOLES

May I put you right—

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I shall not give way; I have not stated my facts.

Mr. MOLES

rose—

Mr. SPEAKER

Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

The hon. Member will have ample time to reply. It was stated in the Press and has not been denied, and I asked a question about it, that two Sinn Feiners raided the house of Mr. Watson and seized 20 rifles. It was served up as another atrocity by Sinn Fein. If 20 rifles were seized, is Mr. Watson going to be prosecuted for possession of those arms—because if not what is the good of appealing to the better element in Ireland if the law is not applied impartially? If the Unionist element in the north are permitted to keep rifles and if no steps are taken to disarm them, can we wonder at the contempt in which the British Government is openly held in the south and west of Ireland? That is a point which should be made perfectly clear in this Debate, if there is time to do it. I cannot understand why the Minister for War cannot attend here when his soldiers are criticised.

Mr. STANTON

Our soldiers.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

Yes, British soldiers. They were criticised by the hon. and gallant Gentlemen who moved and seconded this Motion, and I think the Minister for War might have been here to state what is his point of view. The question in Ireland has now become a military problem. I am going to read a statement from the "Manchester Guardian" of to-day which that paper quotes from the "Freeman's Journal" and it is open to other hon. Members to deny it. There was a young man called Thomas Brett who was killed in consequence of a fight, probably in making a murderous attack on a police barracks. He was buried at Drombeg, near Thurles. Upwards of 3,000 volunteers assembled and the remains were carried to the cemetery. Hon. Members from Ireland will agree that up to the present these public funerals have been conducted with decorum and decency.

Mr. MOLES

No.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

Even bigotry might admit that. Armed bodies of soldiers, the statement says, held positions in the field surrounding the grave and platoons of military lay prone with rifles right across the passage along with the remains had to pass. This evoked intense resentment, but the clergy successfully calmed the people. I pass over a portion of it, and it continues that the crowd promptly stood up with their hands raised above their heads, and that they were searched and mourning badges torn off, and in many cases religious emblems also. Parties were also pulled out of motors and searched. Protests were made in this country when the wretched creature Toplis was borne to the grave in a tradesman's cart. I think we respect the dead, whoever they are. The statement goes on that on the way to the grave all the people had to undergo the order to search, and that even the officiating clergy and chief mourners were not exempted. The party then proceeded, the armed forces turning their guns towards the people who were kneeling and joining in the rosary, under cover of sentries.

Mr. PALMER

Has the hon. Gentleman taken the trouble to ascertain if these statements are true?

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I am putting the question now for the Government to answer. I feel as bitterly as any Member of this House that these things should go round the world as having been done by the British Army with its glorious record. I am as jealous of the honour of British soldiers as anyone in tins House, and it hurts me to have these things appearing in the Press. This is what the troops appear to be doing in Ireland instead of keeping order in London and Dublin. I suggest that the Minister of War, whom I am glad to see now in his place, ought to pay attention to this sort of thing and see that the troops are used impartially. If he would do that instead of writing provocative articles on the Irish people in the Press we might see some sort of order, and at any rate prevent these disgraceful episodes which bring the whole of the British Empire into contempt.

Mr. BILLING

A feeling of confusion overwhelms me after listening to the last four speeches. The hon. Member (Mr. Inskip), who preceded the hon. and gallant Member for Hull, did try to make the matter a little clear and did express his desire to sacrifice any party feeling or prejudice on the altar of conciliation; but what were the other speeches from the Labour Benches but a pat on the back for Sinn Feiners without having the courage to come out and say that they were prepared to unite with them? Does the hon. Member think that by getting up and saying "while we do not approve of murder, we think there is no other way of bringing the Government to their senses" is likely to stop it? And when he says that he disapproves of every form of force, is he speaking for the Labour party? Is not direct action another form of force? It is only a question of degree. I was surprised when the hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. A. Davies) rose from the Labour Benches during the speech of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Inskip) and made what in my opinion was the only useful contribution to this Debate, including the Government's contribution. He said, speaking for the Labour party, that he was not prepared, and they were not prepared, to use the Trade Union organisation as a weapon to prevent the Government from enforcing by arms, if necessary, all law and order in Ireland. There were cheers all round the House, but there was not one response from the Labour Benches.

Dr. MURRAY

Yes, there was one here.

Mr. BILLING

I am glad that we had a contribution from another hon. Member.

Major BARNES

There was another from the back Bench.

Mr. BILLING

Then we have three Members. Is there any advance on three? There are 70 Labour Members in this House, or there should be when there is such an important Debate. My Noble Friend (Lord R. Cecil), whom not even the Lord President of the Council could on this occasion accuse of being a fanatic, said that he could not possibly see how conciliation could walk side by side with coercion. Surely that was the very thing which he himself advocated the other day when he said that the only means the League of Nations enforcing its power was to conciliate, and, if necessary, to use force. I do not hold any brief for the Government in this matter. They have not done either thing with a whole heart, and the reason they have neither coerced nor conciliated with a whole heart is that they have a party behind them which is not whole-hearted on either point, and the result is that their attitude to all Ireland is essentially the attitude of a Coalition. You cannot coerce in chaos, and chaos exists in Ireland to-day, and every speech I have heard in this House has been coloured either by party prejudice or by a desire purely to criticise.

There is a general fear throughout Ireland, and it is understandable, but it is not forgivable. I think the Government would have been justified in publishing the names and addresses of every man on that tram referred to who refused to come forward, as better men than they have come forward to make a sacrifice, if they are desirous of seeing order restored. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull will use any stick with which to fight the Government. I have listened to him on more than one occasion in this House, and, if I may say so, he is not unique in occupying the time of this House. He is not the only Member who has seen fit to do so, and perhaps he has his own point of view. There was a time when I had my own point of view, and I missed as few occasions as he has missed to endeavour to press it on the House. But it is sometimes a mistake to use one's country's distress as a means to whack any Government, and I appeal to the hon. and gallant Member for Hull not to tilt at the Government when in the tilting he certainly encourages a further state of disorder. The only excuse for tilting at the Government to-day on the question of Sinn Fein is if any hon. Member is convinced in his mind that a Republic in Ireland, with an absolute severance of the Irish people, is absolutely essential to the solving of this question. If the hon. Member believes that, he is justified in tilting at the Government, but he is not justified in using Ireland as a weapon against the Government because he disagrees with them about Russia. That is what we have seen to-night. The Noble Lord disagrees with the Government about the League of Nations, so he hits them with Ireland. A Labour Member disagrees with the Government, probably, about 127½ per cent., and so he strikes at them with Ireland. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull dis- agrees with them about Russia, and so he strikes at them with Ireland. That means the dismemberment of the Empire, the general confusion of all political life, the confusion of civil administration in Ireland, and every party hack in this House, and every man who presumes to call himself an independent critic, is using it as a weapon to strike at the Government. I will mention Derry with an expression of regret that the right hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Government should have introduced—it possibly is the redeeming feature of all Irish people—the sense of humour. There is nothing funny about the position of Ireland to-day. I do not think even a Sinn Fein Irishman would crack a joke about it to-day. They are utterly determined, if they can, by intimidation, by outrage, by every weapon that lies to their hand, to free Ireland from what they choose to call the British yoke. We are in the same position as before. Are we going to allow it to go on, or are we going to try to stop it? It will not be stopped by constantly waiting until we are struck and then looking for the person who struck us. There is a strong opinion in Ireland to-day in favour of what has been constitutional government. My heart would beat for the Irish people if they would come out to fight. If the Sinn Feiners would come out in a clean fight to fight us to an issue, I should have sympathy with them, but I have no sympathy for the man who stands behind a street corner and shoots a man behind his back. I can understand a man's political opinions being anything, I can understand an Irishman feeling that Ireland has been betrayed, by not one Government, but by several, a Conservative Government, and a Liberal Government, then a Coalition Government, and again the re-hash that we have in this country to-day. I can understand Ireland being bitter about it, but I cannot understand any true Irishman shooting a man behind his back—a bastard Irishman who has drifted into the nation, perhaps, but not a true-born Irishman. If this Government is going to exist we must stamp out foul play in Ireland.

Commander BELLAIRS

I want for a few moments to recall the House to the realities of this Debate. The gravamen of the charge against the Government is that they have not done all that is pos- sible to support the forces of law and order in Ireland, and there has been no attempt on the part of any Member of the Government to get up and say why they do not enforce martial law in Ireland. I do not feel that all has been done to support the police and those who wish to see law and order maintained in Ireland until martial law is enforced there. It was defined by Sir Charles Napier when he said that, the union of legislative, judicial, and executive powers in one person is the essence of martial law. The Government say that General Macready has complete powers; he has not complete powers so long as he is not able to enforce martial law in Ireland, and how can we expect civilian witnesses who live under a reign of terror to come forward and bear witness in regard to murders which they have seen unless they feel that they will be supported, as they would be supported were there martial law? The learned Attorney-General mentioned the case of the murder of a Magistrate, and said there were 26 witnesses of that murder in the tram, among whom were people employed in Government offices. Therefore, they are known to Members of the Government and to the Attorney-General, yet they do not come forward and bear witness. Can anyone in this House doubt for one moment that those people would be willing to bear witness, were there military tribunals established in the land? They would then feel that they had got the complete support of the Government. In regard to the soldier-cyclists who were trapped by about 100 Sinn Feiners playing a game on the road, if they had martial law there, groups of men would not be allowed to assemble. The fact of their assembling in a group would be tantamount to proof that they were enemies, that they were Sinn Feiners, and they would all be called upon to hold their hands up at once, and to be searched and to surrender, but under the present circumstances the soldiers do not know whether a group is friendly or hostile. If General Macready had complete powers, he would be able to specify by proclamation that any assembly of a group of more than 10 men would be regarded as enemies of the country, and would be liable to be fired at. In those circumstances, we cannot for one moment allow that the Government have done all that is possible to give General Macready complete powers to establish law and order in Ireland.

Question, "That this House do now adjourn", put, and negatived.