GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND [MONEY]. (Hansard, 22 June 1920)

§ Sir LAMING WORTHINGTON-EVANS
(Minister without Portfolio): I think I ought to call the attention of the Committee to the altered form of this Financial Resolution. It was our intention to move a Resolution covering the whole Bill. This is a limited Resolution, and it is intended to cover the Clauses of the Bill other than Clauses 18 to 34 inclusive, which are the Financial Clauses. When in Committee we come to those Clauses we shall ask leave to postpone the consideration of them, and we shall have to introduce another Financial Resolution to support them. This particular Financial Resolution does not, in fact, cast any final charge upon the Treasury; it merely enables the Reserved Services to be paid for by us, and, in turn, to be deducted from the funds which will subsequently go to the Irish Parliaments. The Government therefore intend to ask the House to pass this Resolution, then to postpone the Financial Clauses of the Bill, and, later on, to bring in another Financial Resolution to support those Clauses. As hon. Members who have been following the Committee Stage of the Bill know quite well, representatives of the Chambers of Commerce both in the North and South of 2034 Ireland have asked for further information as to the basis upon which the £18,000,000 has been fixed as the Imperial contribution. That requires a review of the old Financial return between Ireland and Great Britain. That information is being got out by the Treasury, and there will be further meetings with the two groups who have asked for it. It is hoped that sooner or later they will be convinced that the White Papers that have been issued and drawn up are on a proper basis, and that the proportions between Great Britain and Ireland on the one hand, and between the North and South of Ireland on the other hand, have been properly and fairly made. The Government think that it is important that this should be thoroughly discussed, and that any further information obtainable should be prepared and ready for the House before it is asked to discuss the Financial Clauses.

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
I should like to understand more definitely than I have been able to gather from what my right hon. Friend has said whether the object of this Resolution is to enable the discussion to proceed past Clause 17. If it relates to the general finance of the scheme, I see no reason why it should be passed. It might wait until later we have the Report of the Committee, when we can deal with the situation as a whole.

§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS
I hoped that I had explained that it was the intention when we came to Clause 18, which is the beginning of the Financial Clauses, to postpone the consideration of Clauses 18 to 34, and to ask the Committee to go on to Clause 35 and the subsequent Clauses. This Financial Resolution only relates to Clause 35 onwards. It does not relate to the financial provisions of the Bill. I must bring in another Financial Resolution before I can ask the Committee to consider the Financial Clauses. At that time I hope that I shall be able to give the further information which is now being got out.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
I understand that this Resolution merely provides for the expenses of the judges, courts, and police in Ireland, and before we pass it I think it ought to be carefully examined. As things are at present, I do not think that we are going to get anything like value for our money. I am not going to refer to the subject on which the 2035 Adjournment is to be moved, namely, the failure of the Government to keep law and order in Ireland, but I am going to ask the House to reject this Motion, and to call attention to the none-use of the courts and the legal machinery in Ireland, which is a very serious matter indeed.

§ The CHAIRMAN
The hon. and gallant Member will have to find some other occasion to do that, because it is impossible on this Vote.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
I understand that this is to vote money for the judges and Irish officers, officers of the High Court of Appeal of Ireland, and officers and constables of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police Court, and I object to that expenditure.

§ The CHAIRMAN
That will come up in the Committee stage. This Resolution only authorises the consideration of certain provisions in the Bill.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
Do I understand that by passing the Committee stage and the Report stage of this Resolution, we do not approve of the expenditure of money on these services?

§ The CHAIRMAN
Wo de not vote any money by this Resolution.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
In that case, I have no objection to it at all.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I should like to ask two or three questions. The Resolution provides for payments to the judges and Irish officers, officers of the High Court of Appeal of Ireland, and officers and constables of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police Force. There is no limit to the Resolution. It is a blank cheque. As I understand it, it means that this particular Force will be handed over to the Irish Parliaments in a very short time. Am I to understand, if we pass this Resolution, that we shall be liable at all times to pay the salaries of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force? There are three Financial Resolutions relating to the Government of Ireland Bill. Apparently the remaining two are not going to be moved, but I want to know why 2036 the Government are in such a hurry. If it be necessary to do all sorts of things, why not have one Resolution instead of three? I understand that the Government are going to bring in another Financial Resolution later on. I want to know whether Clauses 18 to 34 are going to be postponed. I did not quite follow the statement of the right hon. Gentleman.

§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS
I always like to answer any direct questions put to me by the right hon. Baronet. He first asked whether we are to be liable for all time to pay the salaries mentioned in this Financial Resolution. He can give the answer very much better than I can. His experience will tell him that it does not impose any such liability.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
It gives the Government power, when they come to the Bill, to provide that the salaries of these people shall be paid for all time.

§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS
When we come to that Clause, I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend, if he has any objection, will raise it.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
Will you listen to me?

§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS
We always listen very attentively to my right hon. Friend. He also asked why there should be another Financial Resolution. I thought that I had explained it. We intend to ask the Committee to postpone the Financial Clauses of the Bill. This Financial Resolution is not in a form which will support those Financial Clauses and admit of them being discussed now. Another Financial Resolution must be brought in to enable those Clauses to be discussed. I have already explained why I am going to ask the Committee to postpone the consideration of those Clauses.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I am not objecting to that course, but do I understand that the finance of the Bill is to be recast?

§ Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS
No; my right hon. Friend must not understand that. We are considering the basis upon which the calculations have been made. Of course if there were anything radically wrong with them, they would have to be recast, but no one has been able to point 2037 out to me that anything is radically wrong with them, and I do not think there is. Anyhow, when the time comes, we can discuss it. I am trying to give the information to those entitled to have it—Members of the House and those affected by it—to allow them to make up their minds whether this is or is not a fair basis. I am giving all the information the Treasury have got,and if it is not a fair basis, no doubt they will point it out; and if it is a fair basis, no doubt they will acquiesce in the Financial Resolution.