§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYAfter the lucid explanation which the right hon. Gentleman has just given and which certainly satisfied me, I should like to ask what is the exact meaning of this Clause. We are told that these Houses of Commons must not adopt or pass any Vote, Resolution, Address or Bill for the appropriation for any purpose of any part of the public revenue, and so on.
§ The CHAIRMANI do not think the hon. and gallant Member is using the procedure of the House properly. This is the procedure of Standing Order 66, practically verbatim.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYWith great respect, I was not proposing to read the whole of it, but I was reading about the Votes, Resolutions, and Addresses, and it seemed to me very wide indeed. I have not attempted, purposely, at any rate, to abuse the procedure of the House. I would like to ask how far this is going to affect the control of the money 1219 by these two Parliaments. I think it will be agreed in this House that the more power we can give to these two Parliaments over their own revenues, without too much veto by the Lord Lieutenant, the better for them. I may be rather dull in understanding this part of the Bill, but it seems to me very important, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could give us a short description of what this is going to meet.
§ Mr. LONGThe answer is very simple. The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows that the primary duty of this House is to vote money, having examined the demands for which it is made, and all this procedure which is set out in this Clause is on exactly the same lines as the procedure in this House. The Lord Lieutenant, as the representative of the sovereign power, has exactly the same power as is enjoyed here. It is the same system as we have here.
§ Mr. REIDWe have your authority, Sir, and that of the right hon. Gentleman, for saying that this reproduces, for the two Parliaments in Northern and Southern Ireland, the procedure of this House with regard to financial matters. I take it that no Government could go on for long unless all matters of ordinary expenditure were introduced at the instance of the Government. It is because it has control over finance that it knows how best to cut its coat according to its cloth. It is responsible for the money it has to spend. In this Bill there are three Legislatures established—the Parliament of Northern Ireland, the Parliament of Southern Ireland, and the Council of Ireland. The Council of Ireland has power to make laws in regard to certain matters, and the right hon. Gentleman, in reply to a question I put, told us that those matters might involve a charge on the Treasuries of Southern and Northern Ireland. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information as to how some similar procedure is to be applied to the Council of Ireland? If limitations are to be applied to the Northern and Southern legislative spending authorities it seems equally necessary in regard to the third legislative spending authority.
§ Mr. LONGIt is not suggested in this Bill that the action of the Council should be subjected to the limitations which are imposed upon the elected bodies. I do 1220 not know whether my hon. Friend is prepared to accept the alternative. He wishes that the Council shall be under the same control as the Parliaments. What does that mean? It means setting up another elected body in Dublin charged with wide powers. That is exactly a thing which he and his friends have resolutely opposed. We have accepted their view and have not introduced into this Bill a separate authority except this Committee, composed as it is in the Bill, and we have admitted that the expenditure of the Committee will not be open to revision in the same way as the expenditure of the Parliaments.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am afraid I do not quite understand what my right hon. Friend means. Clause 15, as I understand it, perpetuates the rule which regulates finance in this House. That rule is that no Bill or Motion imposing a charge upon the taxpayer can be moved except with the consent of the Crown. That is to say, unless the King gives his consent, and being a constitutional monarch he acts on the advice of a Minister of the Crown, no Motion imposing a charge upon the subject can be moved in this House. That I have always understood is the practice which for centuries has been followed, and I thought that Clause 15 merely perpetuates that practice, and that it was necessary to do it because Ireland was still to be a part of the United Kingdom. Therefore it was necessary that no taxation should be imposed except with the consent of His Majesty given through His Majesty's Ministers. I am in favour of perpetuating that rule, but now I understand my right hon. Friend to say that the Council in Ireland is apparently to impose taxation without having received the sanction of the Lord Lieutenant as the representative of His Majesty.
§ Sir F. BANBURYThe hon. Member (Mr. Reid) seemed to think that the two Parliaments ought to have this power, and that it was going to be taken away from them, and he asked if the Council had that power, and I understood my right hon. Friend to say—I may have been wrong—that the Council would not be subject to the same limitation as the two Parliaments.
§ Sir F. BANBURYThat being so, the Council would be free from the liability of obtaining the consent of the Lord Lieutenant, as the representative of His Majesty, and they could impose taxation without limitation.
§ Sir F. BANBURYThey have to get the money from somewhere. In order to get the money they must impose charges.
§ Sir F. BANBURYThen I give it up