§ "Anything which would be an offence under the Veterinary Surgeons Act if committed by an individual shall be an offence if committed by a company registered under the Companies Acts."
§ Mr. CAUTLEYI beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to insert the words "or a society registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act."
That only completes the scheme of the Clause, which is to make companies or any trading bodies which are carrying on veterinary business, responsible in the same way as private persons.
§ Mr. RAWLINSONI support the Amendment, but I venture to ask, if even now the Clause is wide enough. Does it include the co-operative societies, which are dealing very largely now with all sorts 814 of different questions, including insurance?
§ Mr. CAUTLEYI am obliged for the suggestion, but I am inclined to think they are included. At any rate, the matter will be looked into and put right in another case, if necessary.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Motion made, and question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."—[Mr. Cautley.]
Mr. DENNISSIt seems a pitiful state of things that the Royal Veterinary College should have to bring in a Bill of this description, in order to raise the balance of the paltry sum of 3,300 guineas, which is not paid voluntarily by the 3,300 veterinary surgeons. There must be something very wrong somewhere, when a body which is dubbed the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, and which is entrusted with all the examinations of all veterinary surgeons, and with prosecutions and inquiries, should be so stinted for funds as to have to bring in this little Private Bill, badly drawn as it was, and open to so much dispute and misconstruction as it was in Committee. If it had not been for the good offices of the Minister of Agriculture, the Bill certainly would have been wrecked, but fortunately that rock has been escaped. This body has a college at Camden Town, and there are colleges, I believe, in Scotland and in Ireland. Those are the only colleges that the Royal Veterinary College recognises at all. It is a sort of monopoly that this Royal Veterinary College has, and it looks with disfavour upon any other university or body granting any degrees to veterinary surgeons. In fact, there is at Leeds University a curriculum of veterinary surgeons. Although a candidate may have passed through the excellent five years' course there, and fully qualified himself, quite as well as, if not better than, at Camden Town or in Scotland or Ireland, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons refuses to recognise that degree and compels him to come to Camden Town for a course there of another four years. Such a state of things ought to be known to the public. I am quite sure it is detrimental to the profession of the veterinary surgeon. Perhaps that is the reason why the great majority of the 3,300 veterinary surgeons do not subscribe their guinea at the present time and that 815 is probably why this Bill has to be brought in to compel the balance of the 3,300 who do not subscribe. Belfast University has for long contemplated granting degrees in veterinary science, and having a regular course there, but that has been blocked entirely by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. Similarly at Cardiff, which wanted to do the same thing.
I think it is time the eye of public opinion was directed to this Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons in order that we may see that they may have proper means given to them to carry out their duties as an examining body principally, and also for prosecution and inquiry as mentioned in the Preamble of the Bill, and, more than that, they should be put in a position so as not to be allowed to boycott, as it were, the other universities in the Kingdom, which, I think, grant a degree which is worth more than that of Camden Town, because in the larger universities, such as those of London, Oxford, Cambridge, Leeds, Belfast and Cardiff, students are brought into contact with those of other professions, which is not the case at Camden Town. The scarcity of veterinary surgeons is notorious in this country, which is the greatest live-stock breeding country in the world. In spite of that, this retrograde body did its best to crush out altogether the unqualified veterinary assistant, in which case the live-stock industry in this country would have been seriously affected. However, we have a champion of the unqualified veterinary assistants in the Minister of Agriculture.
I should have thought that the cost incurred in suing for a guinea would be such that when judgment was obtained for it, it would be all swallowed up in costs. It really comes to this, that in the case of refusal to pay the fee, in the majority of cases, it will not be worth the while of the Veterinary College to sue for it, and to a great extent this Bill will become a dead letter. The time has now arrived, I think, when the Royal Veterinary College might very well lay its case before the British public, and, if necessary, before this House, to put the veterinary profession upon a more secure and satisfactory basis than is provided by this miserable and pitiable little Bill. I am quite sure the agricultural interest in this country, as well as Members of this House, would be only too glad to help 816 them, but, first of all, they must depart from their old-fashioned monopolistic methods, and must recognise the degrees of Leeds, and allow Belfast, Cardiff and other universities to grant veterinary degrees, without compelling those who have got those degrees to come to Camden Town for another four years' course. It is a public matter of some importance, or I should not have brought this before the House at this time on a Friday afternoon.
§ Captain ELLIOTI think the last speaker in some way was a little unjust, but I do think it is worth while on this occasion to have a very short review of the position of veterinary science in this country. After all, the agricultural Estimates have gone up from £300,000 to over £4,000,000, of which a great amount is spent in veterinary investigations, and in agricultural research. The status of the veterinary surgeon now requires, undoubtedly, to be raised. This Bill is a step, although a small step, in the right direction, and therefore I welcome it most heartily, but I do think that further investigation of the problem is necessary. The very name "veterinary surgeon," like the old term "barber surgeon," should pass away. The micrologist, the investigator into all branches of parasitic diseases, diseases of animals, and so on, will become a man as highly skilled and as highly qualified, and a member of a body with as great a status in the country as the doctor or scientist. The old cow-doctor, as he has been called during the course of this Debate, is a man who, from his experience, skill, his hard common sense, is a man worthy of every consideration, but the veterinary surgeon of the future, for whom I hope some new title will emerge, will be a man infinitely more valuable to the health and to the success and prosperity of this country, for, after all, one thing which strikes one more than another in going among agriculturists of this country, is the deep distrust they have of the Whitehall official, and the great confidence they are beginning to develop in the laboratory side. It is a strange thing, this existence of a new spirit coming in, which I am only too glad to observe. When you speak to the ordinary farmer you find that he distrusts the bureaucrat, but he trusts the laboratory man. One of the most striking examples of that we have found 817 in the recent investigations into the causes of foot-and-mouth disease. There are few things which have caused greater hardship and expense to this country than the foot-and-mouth epidemics which have devastated it. They have led to a very stringent order prohibiting the importation of livestock, which has led, and will lead again, to considerable friction with the great Dominion of Canada which is anxious.
§ Sir F. BANBURYOn a point of Order, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER. What has the Dominion of Canada got to do with a Bill which provides that a guinea shall be paid to a veterinary surgeon?
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI think I must hear the argument of the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
§ Captain ELLIOTI think, perhaps, it is a little ungracious on the part of the right hon. Baronet to make that interruption, I do think that the progress of veterinary science in this country is one of most vital interest, and it is perhaps impossible to expect that a Member for a City Division shall grasp the importance of it to the same extent as the Members for county constituencies. But I assure my right hon. Friend that there is no subject in which a deeper interest is taken in the counties of Great Britain than the progress of veterinary research. This is a very important Bill. I think it is not out of order on a Friday afternoon to raise briefly some of the more important issues now lying before the animal pathologist. There are many issues in which we take the greatest interest which can only be investigated by the skilled man who has gone through a course of veterinary science. This Bill is an attempt to raise the status of the man who had gone through such a course, and, therefore, I think one is entitled to point out that the man who has undergone a five years' course of veterinary science is one who is worthy of the utmost consideration of this House when he or his governing body, as in this case, comes before the House of Parliament, and asks for certain rather wide and rather sweeping provisions in a Bill. The case of the unregistered practitioner deserves our utmost sympathy. At the same time that must not blind us to the fact that we are moving on to a very much higher level of science in animal pathology as in human pathology, in animal medicine as in human 818 medicine, in animal surgery as in human surgery, and that the necessity for raising the status of these men, and giving them some sort of vested interest in their five years' work is not a thing entirely out of order. I would repeat again to the right hon. Gentleman that the county member is in quite a different position in this matter to the member for streets and streets—[Interruption]—I cannot continue by question and answer.
§ Sir. F. BANBURYMay I suggest, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the position of a city Member has nothing whatever to do with the veterinary surgeon?
§ Captain ELLIOTI think the position of a man who is interested in this Bill as against the position of the man who is not interested in this Bill is entirely germane, and no reason for the interruptions of the right hon. Baronet.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERIt would be a little more in order if the hon. and gallant Gentleman directed his remarks to the Third Reading of the Bill. Then we can judge whether his observations have reference to what is in the Bill.
§ Captain ELLIOTI beg your pardon, Sir. If I am in any way transgressing the rules of order, because this is a matter in which, as a medical man myself, I take the greatest interest, and I have the utmost sympathy for the veterinary surgeons of this country in their attempts to raise their status to that level which, I think, the medical practitioners of this country have reached. I was simply dealing with the fact of the investigations into 3.0 P.M. the causes of foot-and-mouth disease which, after all, require a very high level of scientific skill, and which are now being investigated by a Committee presided over by Professor Muir of Glasgow who is a pure scientist, and a man whose views would not be entirely interpreted except by people who themselves have received a scientific training.
I am arguing in favour of the Third Reading of this Bill, and in favour of a better recognition by the country of the work of the veterinary surgeons. We are coming more and more clearly to understand that the health of the herds of this country is of vital importance to the people. It is of vital importance to the industry of this country. It can be served and only be served by men who themselves have undergone a long and careful 819 apprenticeship in that scientific training which is becoming more and more complex every day. The veterinary surgeons who have investigated the question of foot-and-mouth disease, and who are investigating it just now, are highly-skilled men. They ought not to be put on the same footing as the ordinary ignorant man who has come into the work purely through apprenticeship, and has never studied the broad scientific principles underlying the work of the profession. There is no doubt at all that from the question of animal pathology we hope to learn a great deal which will subsequently be of use in human pathology. From the investigations into the epidemiology of foot-and-mouth disease there may be, and we hope will be, the greatest use in the investigations in the future into the epidemiology of such things as influenza. I need only refer to the great institute at Aberdeen for the examination of animal diseases, which has recently received very liberal support from the citizens in Scotland, has attracted a professor of physiology from London University, and has taken him up there to investigate questions of animal diseases. A science which has gone so far should have the utmost encouragement and the utmost assistance which this House can possibly give to it.
In questions of animal pathology, questions of diathetics and so on, we, who are medical men, hope to get the utmost advantages from the researches of our professional brethren, the veterinary surgeons. The whole question of animal feeding is being investigated at the institute in Aberdeen, which is not being sufficiently supported, I think, by the Government. There is the great Veterinary Surgeons College of Glasgow, from which, I understand, a deputation will at a very early date interview some of the leading Government officials. There is no doubt the work which they do has not been sufficiently recognised in the past. I fear, unless the question is raised in this House, it will not be sufficiently recognised in the future by Parliament and the Government of Great Britain. The problems still awaiting research are very many. They are of the highest importance. I have touched briefly upon foot-and-mouth disease. The Veterinary Surgeons College of Glasgow, which will be closely affected by this Bill, has many other things up for discussion. It has got the whole question 820 of contagious abortion, some sort of epizootic infection, which is causing enormous losses every year to the herds of this country. There is all the sheep diseases, which it is of the highest importance to investigate, and which can only be investigated by people who have received a scientific training. There is the disease known as loupin-ill amongst the sheep flocks of Scotland, which is causing and has caused very great loss. There is a new disease, known as scrapie, a blood disease of which we have no knowledge, or very little, at the present time, and which ultimately requires investigation.
There are many other diseases, which I will not weary the House to recapitulate, but which have an immediate bearing on the health of the herds of this country, and, through them, on the prosperity of the people of this country. They should be investigated by men who have undergone the necessary apprenticeship which the degree of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons recognises, and which this Bill goes a certain length towards definitely and permanently recognising. There has been a great deal of correspondence in the agricultural Press concerning the problems which still have to be investigated. From sheep diseases alone it is estimated that the loss to Scotland is over £500,000 annually. That is a loss which could be largely averted if we had the service of more skilled men. As this Bill takes a step towards the provision of more skilled men, on that account alone it deserves the support of this House. In the past the old cow doctors have not proved themselves able to avert this great loss.
The whole question of animal pathology is practically an unexplored science. The fact, for instance, that the disease of rickets is of common occurrence amongst sheep and growing pigs shows that if we can investigate these things by men of scientific training, we might discover results of the utmost importance to the children of this country. The subject of dental caries or bad teeth is very closely connected with dietetics, and we can study this question from animal nutrition and derive the greatest benefit for human nutrition, and we cannot do this except with the assistance of men trained in science and with animal knowledge, and those men are alone represented by the veterinary surgeons of this country. This is one of the main reasons why I support this Bill.
821 The veterinary institutions have done a great deal of good in this country. I should be very sorry to say anything that is out of order, but it is not often one gets the opportunity of putting the claims of veterinary science before Parliament and the country. When I see a Minister on the Front Bench whose devotion to this subject we all recognise, naturally I am anxious to place before him the claims of veterinary science. This Bill does not go very far, but I ask the support of hon. Members for it on the ground that it does not ask for any money from the State. In this measure the veterinary surgeons are asking permission to tax themselves, and the fact that they are willing to do this in order to extend and enlarge the field of knowledge on these matters is one of the most admirable elements of public spirit that this House has recently seen. Most other measures generally end up by a request for the vote of a large sum of public money, but a Bill which taxes its own members for the benefit of its own scientific development, demands the most favourable consideration that this House can give to it.
I should like the chief Irish Law Officer to explain the effect of the Amendment which has been accepted with regard to Ireland by the Mover of this Bill, and if the right hon. Gentleman could, in a few words, define for us the bearing of that Amendment on the veterinary surgeons of Ireland, he would be doing a considerable favour to a large number of worthy men, who are not sufficiently versed in the law to grasp the exact bearing of the Amendments which were submitted rather hastily to this House. I do not know whether the Attorney-General for Ireland wishes to intervene now in the Debate, but I am sure Irish Members would be glad if they could have his opinion as to the bearing of the Amendment upon Ireland. I should be the last person to do anything in any way weakening the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and its branches throughout the United Kingdom, and I hope the Amendment which has been accepted will not have this effect. I really do not think it will have that effect in Scotland, but I have no knowledge of the effect of the Amendment in any country outside Scotland. I am grateful to the House for the patience and courtesy with which they have given me a hearing. I claim, without fear of 822 contradiction, that veterinary science is becoming of more and more importance to the food supply of this country and increased production—
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThat subject is not in order on the Third Reading.
§ Captain ELLIOTI had hoped that in a Bill dealing with the status of veterinary surgeons, I might have been allowed to refer to that question. I think qualified veterinary surgeons have served this country well in the past, and will deserve better of the country in the future. For these reasons, I have much pleasure in heartily supporting the Third Reading of this Bill.
§ Lieut.-Colonel SPENDER-CLAYI do not quarrel with the hon. and gallant Member in regard to the extremely interesting dissertation he has given us, dealing with a large number of subjects with the meaning of which hon. Members are not very well acquainted. I want to say how strongly I support the Third Reading. I cannot help thinking that we should like to hear from the Minister of Agriculture some answer to the criticisms which were made by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Denniss) earlier in the Debate. It does appear to me that it is only right that men attending veterinary courses of instruction at universities such as Leeds, Belfast, and Aberdeen, which have established Chairs and which give instruction in veterinary science, should be given degrees without having to attend a further course at one of the five colleges which are at present entitled to give degrees. Every year more and more work has to be done by veterinary surgeons, and more is expected of them by the Ministry of Health. It is of the utmost importance that there should be a sufficient number of veterinary surgeons qualified to diagnose the diseases of animals and to ensure prevention against the spread of diseases. It is of the utmost importance, in the interest of the livestock of this country, that these men should be qualified and that there should be large numbers of them. The Minister of Agriculture should give every possible encouragement to the College in order that the profession may be made as attractive as possible and that a large number should be encouraged to join it. I trust the Bill, which has been described as a modest measure, will improve the position of veterinary surgeons. It is a 823 Bill which should have been passed many years ago, and I sincerely support it. I hope that the Minister will be able to say a word as to what can be done to induce the Royal College to recognise other universities as being qualified to give degrees.
§ Major MOLSONAs a county Member interested in agriculture, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will do all that he can to further the interests of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. I would like also to say a few words on behalf of the unqualified veterinary surgeons. They have in the past done very fine work. I have known many cases in which the unqualified man has been of more use to the owner of horses or the farmer than sometimes the more highly qualified veterinary surgeon. I know that some of my hon. Friends behind me may say, "Oh, oh," but I do think that the unqualified veterinary surgeon has often been more useful in ordinary illnesses than the veterinary surgeon holding a degree. I would also like to say a few words with regard to what the hon. and gallant Member for Lanark-shire (Captain Elliot) has said, and I would refer more particularly to a disease which is known in agriculture as worms in swine. If veterinary surgeons were given better facilities for their investigations, they would be able to do a great deal of good to agriculture in this country. The disease is known to occur a great deal in China, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that hundreds of thousands of pounds would be saved to this country every year if the subject were thoroughly investigated and if pigs which now remain thin and undeveloped could be developed and become fine livestock. Greater facilities for veterinary courses at other universities in this kingdom should be given, and veterinary surgeons should be able to qualify at the Universities of Leeds, and Belfast, and other centres of learning. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will remember that there is a great scarcity of veterinary surgeons in the country and that it would be of great service and in the interest of farmers and livestock if a greater number could be supplied.
§ Mr. CAUTLEYThe interesting speech of the hon. and gallant Member for 824 Lanarkshire (Captain Elliot) will have shown the House what a great field there is for the employment and extension of veterinary knowledge. This Bill is brought in by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons for the main purpose of providing funds for the extension of veterinary knowledge and practice. I propose to explain to the House what is the constitution of the Veterinary College, how it acts, and what work it does, because the speech made by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Denniss) is entirely misleading and inaccurate. The Royal Veterinary College depends upon a charter and upon Acts of Parliament, and it comprises all the graduates of five veterinary colleges, namely, the Royal Veterinary College, London, situated at Camden Town, the Royal Veterinary College at Edinburgh, the Glasgow Veterinary College, the Veterinary School at Liverpool University, and the Royal Veterinary College of Ireland, at Dublin. It is quite true that the Royal College itself has no school of teaching. It is an examining body. It is the sole body entrusted with the regulation of veterinary education within the United Kingdom. It prescribes the standard of ordinary education for its members; it fixes the curriculum for some four years at least for all its members; and it conducts the examinations for the degree of the College which confers the title of "veterinary surgeon." With regard to the two first, they are common to the Royal College Physicians and Surgeons in the sphere of medicine and surgery. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has the further advantage—it is an advantage not only to themselves but also to the public—that it is the sole examining body, and can ensure the general elevation of the standard that is necessary for its members before they can take a degree. It is entirely inaccurate and misleading to say that the other educational bodies are not recognised. At least, three of these constituent bodies give degrees for veterinary science, but along with their own course the student pursues a course prescribed by the Veterinary College. He goes through the two examinations, and he gets the scientific degree of his own college or university and the degree from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons which qualifies him for practice as a veterinary surgeon in the country. The College 825 always has been and still is ready to enter into arrangements with any university or college conferring scientific degrees to carry out a similar arrangement with them. I believe the hon. Member for Oldham is entirely misinformed as to the position of the Leeds University. I gather that what he told us he obtained from an article in the "Times" this morning. Leeds University has an agricultural course extending over five years, and the science of veterinary surgery is taken as part of that course. There is no particular degree for veterinary science. Leeds University have never complained of any action on the part of the Royal Veterinary College which would be only too glad that students taking the agricultural course there should be examined at Leeds with a view to becoming members of the Veterinary College in the same way as is done at other Colleges.
The main object of this Bill is to provide funds for the extension of the public work which has been done in supplying veterinary surgeons, in getting men to join the College, in keeping education up to the highest possible point, and in securing young fellows to prepare themselves to take on this important work. The Bill was brought in before the War on four different occasions, and failed to get through because of want of time. It is not due to any fault on the part of the promoters that Parliament has not enabled them to get the necessary funds long ago. It is quite true that some effort is now being made by Government, by training men who have come back from the War for the veterinary profession. They have given maintenance grants to some 300 or 400 men who are now taking the veterinary course with a view to becoming members of the College. This Bill is designed mainly to get funds from the registered members of the College itself, and does not ask for public assistance, although, in my opinion, public funds might well be used for the advancement of veterinary science. I regret it has been deemed necessary to insist on the Clause dealing with the means for enforcing payment of the annual subscription. Another Clause of the Bill provides for giving recognition to veterinary surgeons who have practised as such for the last 20 or 30 years. There has been some doubt whether, under the Acts under which they were admitted, 826 they are entitled to be described as veterinary surgeons, and that doubt is put at rest by this Bill. The only other enacting Clause is the one which prevents persons associating themselves together for the purpose of carrying on a veterinary practice without being subjected to the same penalties for breaches of law and discipline as private practitioners.
This Bill does not deal in any way with the unregistered practitioner. It has nothing to do with him. It is still open to any practitioner to carry out any operation he likes and to give any drugs he pleases to any animal, and this Royal College has no means of preventing it so long as he does not contravene the law relating to cruelty to animals. He may practise, in, fact, on any animal to his heart's content, whether he be registered or unregistered. The only power the College has is that the man who carries on such practice or performs such operations shall not hold himself out to the public, or be held out as a duly-qualified veterinary surgeon, and that, I submit, is necessary in the interests of veterinary surgeons themselves, and doubly so in the interests of the public. If the public go to a veterinary surgeon, who describes himself as such, and if they are led to believe that he is duly qualified as such, they have a right to expect that they will get the services of a man who is what he purports to be, a duly-qualified veterinary surgeon who has gone through the usual course and knows his business as far as examination and education can insure that. Both in the interest of the public and of the veterinary practitioner, it is desirable that men who have failed in their examinations, or who have never tried to pass, or who may be ignorant both of veterinary science and practice, should not hold themselves out as duly-qualified veterinary surgeons. Those who at present perform minor operations, castrators or others are not touched. They can still continue to carry on their necessary part of the work of agriculture, as they have done in the past. They cannot be touched under this Bill, and, that being so, I ask the House to give this beneficent Measure a Third Reading in the interests, not only of veterinary surgeons and veterinary science, but of the public generally.
§ Mr. LANE-FOXI desire to add my voice to that of those who support this 827 Bill, which, as the hon. and learned Member has just said, is one that is very much overdue and is very badly needed. As anyone who sits for an agricultural constituency will know, there has been considerable anxiety about this Bill in certain towns, where many people were afraid that their practice was going to be interfered with. There has also been considerable anxiety among farmers throughout the country, that they might be deprived of the services of these men, who, as has been said, are invaluable and indispensable for agriculture. That has naturally caused a considerable amount of unrest among farmers in many districts, and I am glad that it has been cleared up by this Debate, and that it is fully understood that this Bill will have no effect of that kind. I think we all realise the absolute necessity for maintaining these so-called unqualified veterinary surgeons, although it is certainly right and necessary that they should not be allowed to describe themselves as possessing qualifications which they do not possess. Anyone who realises what the agricultural districts would be without these men will see how fatal it would be if anything in this Bill were to interfere with them. As everybody knows, there are many extremely good and clever practitioners who may have never been through this course, but have built up a practice largely through their own experience, by working under other men, and gathering knowledge. Many of them have not had the opportunity or the financial means of taking a course in veterinary science, but we cannot do without them in rural districts, and I hope that any anxiety they may have had will now have been dispelled. When we realise the extent to which the livestock of this country is necessary to the wellbeing of rural districts, and how very much it is being improved every day, it becomes more obvious how necessary it is that we should have the best veterinary advice, and therefore I hope that it may be possible in the future for more veterinary surgeons to go through this course and become qualified. There is nothing in this Bill to prevent that.
I understand that a statement was made, when I happened not to be in the House, by an hon. Member whom I do not now see present, which suggested that 828 there was some conflict between the University of Leeds and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. I happen to know a good deal about the University of Leeds, and I could assure the hon. Member, if he were here, that there is absolutely nothing, as far as I know, in that statement. No such conflict exists. The most amicable relations have always existed between the University and the College. It is true that, as a part of the agriculture course of the University, there is a course in veterinary science, as it is most necessary that anyone embarking on an agricultural career should possess veterinary knowledge. In that, however, there has been the closest co-operation and the most amicable relations between the University of Leeds and the College, and I do not think that any such statement ought to be made. I cordially welcome this Bill, and I am sure it will be a very useful and valuable measure. It has the great advantage, to which reference has already been made, that it is one of the few measures which come before the House in which someone is not asking for money from the State. When people only ask permission to tax themselves, it is an object which ought to be regarded as valuable.
§ Sir PHILIP MAGNUSI desire to support the Third Reading of this Bill. I think it will be generally admitted that the Debate has been of considerable interest and will go a long way to increase the interest all over the country in the possibilities of veterinary science. I look upon this measure as only a step in the direction of the objects which we all have in view. No one can have listened to the interesting speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lanarkshire (Captain Elliot) without recognising the great potentialities that there are in veterinary science in connection with the future well-being of this country. I sincerely trust that the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, having obtained the additional powers which will be conferred upon them by this Bill, will not be altogether satisfied with that, but will come to this House before very long and ask for more. It is a matter of the highest importance that those who are called "unqualified"—I think "unregistered" would be a better term, for we should be sorry to entrust the life or the treatment of even a small animal to the 829 hands of a person who was wholly unqualified—I venture to hope that one effect of this Bill will be to induce the Veterinary College to endeavour to raise the standard of education of those who are at present regarded as unregistered or unqualified practitioners. It may not be possible to require that the ordinary practitioner, who is called in on a farm to look after the health of some particular animal, shall be as fully qualified as those who call themselves veterinary surgeons under this Bill, but it seems to me that there might be some intermediate stage, from which those who are at present unregistered and unqualified, and particularly the younger men who enter the profession, might be able to raise themselves by further instruction at a university or some other place of higher education, until they eventually obtain the membership of the Royal College itself. I hope that that will be one of the effects of this Bill. The hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) gave us a very interesting account of the constitution of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, with which I was not altogether familiar. He pointed out that its main function is, as is here stated, to conduct examinations. I see that it also conducts prosecutions and inquiries. I should like to point out that, in the very first Clause of the Preamble of this Bill, there are indications of a worthy ambition on the part of the College, which we hope will be gradually fulfilled. It goes on to say:
and generally to carry out such other objects or duties as may be considered beneficial to the veterinary profession and necessary for the promotion of the art and science of veterinary medicine and surgery.That being, as I take it, the main object of the existence of this College, we may hope it will do all that it possibly can to promote the education of all those persons who are at present unregistered, and are called unqualified, and to help them to become capable of becoming ordinary members of the College. An hon. Member has said that the University of Leeds grants a degree in veterinary science which is accepted by the Veterinary College of Surgeons, and enables them to register a man as thoroughly qualified. He spoke of the College giving a degree. The College does not give a degree. All it does is to license a man to practise as a registered practitioner on the results of the education he has re- 830 ceived at one of the other colleges, or one of these universities. The subject of veterinary surgery is becoming more and more important every day. Science is helping it very much. Indeed, I look forward to a great future for this College of Veterinary Surgeons in the endeavour to raise, as far as we possibly can, the standard of education of all those persons who are in any way connected with it, either as registered or unregistered surgeons. The College does not ask for any subsidy or grant, and with the limited means at its disposal, at the utmost some £3,000 or £4,000 a year, it will be unable in the near future to do all the good work which possibly lies before it, and I should be one of the first, when I see the College entering upon this new departure, to which I look forward, to render any assistance I possibly can to enable it to obtain even larger grants.
Sir A. BOSCAWENPerhaps I ought to explain to the House, as I explained to the Committee, what the attitude of the Government is to this Bill. It is not a Government Bill, but a private Member's Bill. At the same time, not only have we no objection to it, but we very much hope it will pass into law. It is a matter of really great importance from the agricultural standpoint, that the status of the Royal Veterinary College should be improved, that it should have greater power to carry out examinations, to enforce discipline, and generally to raise the status of the veterinary profession, and in order that it may be able to do that, it is a matter of great importance that it should have the necessary powers. It does not come here in forma pauperis asking for a Government grant, it only comes with the practicable proposal of taxing itself. It seems to me this is a Bill in all respects desirable and one therefore which should have the support of the Government in general and the Minister of Agriculture in particular. I was very much interested in the very able speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Elliot). With its general object I entirely agree. It is a matter of the greatest importance that we should raise the status of veterinary science and that we should not only have more qualified practitioners, but that by the application of research we should raise the general level of knowledge. I have often said, not speaking specially on this subject but speaking about agriculture and its future 831 generally, that whatever legislative measures the Government may propose—and I am engaged with a very big measure just now—and whatever the conditions we may lay down, the future of agriculture will depend principally upon the increase of knowledge, upon raising our knowledge to a higher degree and spreading it among practical farmers. Veterinary knowledge, having regard to the nature of agriculture in this country, is of the greatest importance, because we are, and whatever happens we are bound to remain largely a stock raising country, and the value of our flocks and herds is very large indeed. We have been called the stud farm of the world. We export the best cattle, sheep and so forth all over the world and make very large sums of money by so doing, and it is therefore a matter of the greatest importance that in dealing with the flocks and herds and tending them we should have the very best possible veterinary science to apply every day to their use.
The history of this question is roughly this. Veterinary science was very badly neglected for a great many years and was in a very poor way indeed when the Royal College was founded. Practically all the improvements which have been made—and they will certainly go much further—have been due to the action of the Veterinary College. So far as improvements have been made we have to thank the Royal Veterinary College, for all along it has been in a weak position. It has not had the revenue to enable it properly to carry out its duties. There have been doubts as to who were and who were not entitled to be registered as veterinary practitioners. Its whole position has been altogether too indebted and because this Bill, first of all, without coming on the State coffers, provides an adequate revenue for the College to carry out its duties, and secondly, clears up a certain amount of doubt and difficulty as to the status of veterinary practitioners generally, I think it is worthy of the support of the House. I was very glad at the earlier stages to be able to allay those doubts and that misapprehension that arose as to the future position of the unregistered practitioners. However many qualified veterinary surgeons we may have, the great bulk of the every-day work of the farmer will have to be carried out in the future as in the past by the unregistered man, and we have not the slightest desire to interfere with his practice provided 832 always that he does not pretend to be a fully qualified man, and that is secured by the Bill and nothing else. There is no attempt to interfere with his daily work. Again, I think it is a great advantage that we have been able to clear up that difficulty with regard to the bye-law with respect to which I made a statement this afternoon. We do not want to cause misapprehension or panic among the unregistered men or among the farmers who now make use of their services.
Reference has been made to Clause 4. It is now quite properly an offence against the rules of the College for a man practising veterinary science to make himself out to be a veterinary surgeon when he is not. As the law stands there is nothing to prevent two or three of these people combining together and calling themselves a company or something of that sort and then defying the regulations of the College and conducting themselves in a manner which would not be permitted to an individual, thereby breaking the rules and discipline of that profession. Clause 4, concerning which a certain amount of misapprehension was felt, merely deals with that position and renders a company of individuals carrying on their practice in that way amenable to the same discipline as an individual. I do not pretend that this is a very great Bill. I do not say that it covers the whole field by any means. It may be necessary for the Government to come to the House for wider powers in the future, but I do not wish to prejudge that question one way or the other. It is because I believe that so far as it goes the Bill is a good Bill, and because I believe it is necessary and will to some extent add to that scientific knowledge in agriculture that is so important that on behalf of the Government I ask the House to give it a Third Reading.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Bill read the Third Time, and passed.