HC Deb 21 July 1920 vol 186 cc2055-8
Mr. LANSBURY

I beg to move, in page 3, line 29, to leave out the words "being a married man or a widower."

This Amendment is for the purpose of taking care of the child of a man who may, possibly, never have got married. According to the Clause, the child of a married man or widower may get the orphan's pension. It may very well be that the child of such persons may be as illegitimate as any ordinary illegitimate child, that is, a woman may have had an illegitimate child and then marry and then the man contributes and dies. These children, I understand, get a pension without any question, according to the words of this Clause. What we want is, if a man is the father of an illegitimate child and never marries, and happens to die before that child reaches the age when no pension is payable, that that child shall get a pension. I do not think we need argue the question of morals on this matter. This House has over and over again recognised that the child is not responsible for its parents, and that therefore a child in these circumstances ought not to be penalised. I think the number of such cases will probably be very email, but I can say I have known cases where the mother of an illegitimate child has died, and the father brought it up, and it seems to me that if under those circumstances the man has been a contributor the child should have a pension.

Mr. TINKER

I should like to support the Amendment in view of the Workmen's Compensation Act. I think the Minister would be well-advised to accept it in view of that Act.

Mr. SPENCER

May I ask the Minister a question? Suppose a man is contributing weekly to an illegitimate child, and benefit has been imposed by the Court, and the man dies and he is an insured contributor, I understand that as the law stands now, there will be no pension.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I am not concerned to argue this particular Amendment on the question of morals. Clause 45, the Interpretation Clause, already makes provision for certain illegitimate children, and we have laid it-down there that a child includes in relation to a man, an illegitimate child, whether his or his wife's., who was living with him at the time of his death and. in relation to a woman, includes her illegitimate child who was living with her at the time of her death. Therefore, in the case of married men who may have illegitimate children living with them they are treated as their own children. The further question of the illegitimate child of a bachelor is one of administration. If these children are to be considered, we must have proof of the death of both parents. If the man is a bachelor with an illegitimate child of his own living with him, it may be impossible to trace the mother, whether dead or alive. There is also the point that there could be—I was going to say it would be opening the door to further inroads on the finances of the Bill. I do not know how many cases there would be of this kind, but I do know that there are 40,000 illegitimate births every year, but how many would be brought under this particular Amendment it would be difficult to say. The real difficulty, however, is the practical difficulty of administration.

Mr. LANSBURY

May I ask the Minister whether it would not be possible to insert words to make provision that the death of the mother and the birth of the child being registered, should be supplied as evidence that the child was indeed born? Would it not be possible, under the Regulations, to make a regulation to that effect? I did not elaborate the case because I hoped the Minister might have been able to accept the Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I cannot answer that question without further consideration. I do not see at the moment how it could be done. Perhaps it could be done on the definition Clause. I will look into that to-morrow.

Mr. SPENCER

Is there not a possibility of grave injustice being inflicted on someone here? I take it there is no provision for a child in whose case at the time preceding the father's death there was imposed on the father by the Courts an obligation of paying to the child. Now, if the father dies, and this Amendment is not accepted, as far as I can see there is not going to be anything done for that child. I think the Minister should give us some assurance that that child will be protected.

Mr. TINKER

May I take it that the Minister will go into this matter?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I said I would.

Mr. LANSBURY

On the word of the Minister to consider this Amendment, I propose, with your permission to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following Amendment stood on the Order Paper in the name of Miss WILKINSON:

In page 3, line 34, to leave out the word "widow" and to insert instead thereof the word "woman."

Miss WILKINSON

On the Amendment that has been passed over, which incorporates the same sort of principle as the previous Amendment, can I ask whether the same thing applies?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Hope)

If the hon. Member refers to the Amendment just passed, no more questions can be asked on that.

Miss WILKINSON

The point I am making is that the Amendment of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) is followed by an Amendment which is in my name, which you have passed over for the obvious reason that it incorporates precisely the same principle, except that it affects the. woman in the same way as the previous one affects the man. Before we go on to the other Clause, may I ask whether the Minister will consider this Amendment in the same manner as the other?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The hon. Member has brought her point to the notice of the Minister, but it was not in order.