Captain BENNI beg to move to leave out the Clause.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman, with that dialectical agility which he displays, will not suggest that I am necessarily desirous of omitting the Clause from the Bill. I only move this Amendment in order to ask him a question about the Clause. I understand it is proposed to make a special order modifying this Bill in relation to seamen. It will be remembered there were two difficulties, one about domicile, which I think has been met by an Amendment in Committee, and the second about contributions. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the collection of the contributions, or rather the distribution to the beneficiaries, was very unsatisfactory as regards health insurance in connection with seamen. Cards were lost or the societies could not identify the beneficiaries, and I believe Sir Norman Hill expressed the view that one-third of the money was lost as far as those people were concerned who ought to have it. It would be of assistance to the Mercantile Marine if the hon. Gentleman could tell us in a few words what he has in mind when he says he will make a special order to adjust this Bill to the needs of the Mercantile Marine. I take it he means to introduce a different method of collection from that followed under the health insurance, and more satisfactory to this large and important class.
§ Sir K. WOODI gladly respond to the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. So far as the question of seamen domiciled outside this country is concerned, they are no longer included in this Bill. The hon. and gallant Member raised the further question which really affects, in the first place, National Insurance, and, secondly, the administration of this Measure in its application to seamen. There have been great difficulties in administering National Insurance in regard to these men. Their cards are lost or are unstamped and a number of their contributions do not reach the approved societies for the National Insurance Fund. I do not think that is the fault of the approved societies, and I would not like to blame the men themselves on account of the nature of their occupation and the difficulties which they have to encounter. Another reason why we have not been able to formulate a scheme is the fact that all these men do not belong to one or two of the great seamen's societies as we would wish them. A portion of them are scattered up and down among the 1,700 societies which work the National Insurance Act, and, as a consequence, it has been most difficult to devise some other method of seeing that their contributions reach the Fund.
The hon. and gallant Member referred to Sir Norman Hill, who has very vigorously and earnestly urged another method with reference to the collection of the money, and who suggests that it should be done by means of schedules and that some method other than cards should be adopted. We are very favourable to that suggestion, but it would mean an Amendment of the National Insurance Act itself. As my hon. and gallant Friend knows, there is now a Commission sitting which is examining into the question of National Insurance and which we hope will report at the end of the year. The Controller of National Insurance is about to give evidence before that Commission, representing the views of the Department and of the Minister, and I understand that that evidence will support the suggestion of Sir Norman Hill in an endeavour to simplify the method. I have little doubt, if I may respectfully say so, that the Commission will come to the conclusion that some alteration has got to be made, and I think very likely that they will adopt some such scheme as that. I have given an undertaking—and I give 2081 it to-day—that when the Commission do report, and if they report, as we anticipate, much on the lines which everybody connected with the work of seamen desires, that this system of contributions by cards and stamps, so far as they are concerned, should be abolished, we propose to deal with it in the Bill which, in any event, we are bound to bring in next year.
§ Sir K. WOODYes. We have, in fact, already consulted them on this proposal with reference to this Bill. I, myself, received a deputation, I think, from all those interested in this matter, and they came to a unanimous decision, as I understand it, on this very suggestion, which we hope will be embodied in future legislation. [An HON. MEMBER: "And the shipowners!"] I understand that all persons interested are agreed on this matter, and we hope that when this Bill, to which I have referred, comes forward, we shall be able to make some practical suggestion in what is a case which, admittedly, needs remedying.
Mr. DAVIESI feel sure the House will agree when T say that the Minister has given us some very important information, but, so far as I understand this Clause, it is intended to make a special Order before the Bill, to which he has referred, will he introduced, and, if that be so, I should like to make one suggestion. I think the House will have been impressed by the statement the hon. Gentleman has made in regard to the difficulties in dealing with seamen's cards, and if this Order mentioned in this Clause is made, it will have to be made before that Bill comes before the House of Commons, because I cannot see the Ministry waiting for the Bill to become an Act of Parliament before making this Order.
§ Sir K. WOODThe Order referred to in this Clause is simply to determine
in the case of a ship registered in Northern Ireland, the owner of which resides, or has his principal place of business in Great Britain or of a ship registered in Great Britain the owner of which resides or has his principal place of business in Northern Ireland, whether or not persons employed on the ship are to be treated as being insured for the purposes of this Act.
Mr. DAVIESThe information given by the Minister was, at any rate, given on this Clause, and I want, if I may, to make one or two suggestions. I feel sure that the men employed on ships will be in an even greater difficulty under this new Bill than they were under the National Health Insurance Act, and I am pleased to think that the Ministry contemplate doing something with them. But I want to offer this suggestion: I have never been able to understand why the Ministry do not impress upon approved societies the advisability of transferring the few members scattered over the 1,700 societies into the appropriate society for this purpose. Let me give a case in point. There are many members of a society employed, say, as clerks, or shop workers or coal miners, who are members of approved societies not connected with seamen, and when those men join a ship, it seems to me that the Ministry ought to impress upon their approved societies that they should transfer them automatically to the appropriate approved society. I feel sure that until the Hill to which the hon. Gentleman referred becomes law something of that kind ought to be done to help the situation.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI wish to ask whether the hon. Gentleman has looked further into the matter that I raised briefly in Committee on this Clause, and T am encouraged to do this by his very important remarks a moment or two ago, in which he outlined what would happen next year in the Bill the Government were bound to introduce. The previous speeches on this Clause have dealt with the seamen, but the Clause deals really with masters and seamen, which, I suppose, includes officers and engineers and all those who serve in ships. In the case of the merchant service, this Clause is particularly hard. In the great lines it is all right—there are superannuation and pension schemes—but in a great many of the other lines that is not the case, and if one or two shipowners stand out, the others also have to forego having a regular scheme which has been agreed to by the shipowners and officers themselves, and which, I hope, presently, with State assistance, will form part of a superannuation scheme for the officers. The hon. Gentleman knows very well that the two great organisations of 2083 the shipowners and the officers are very strong on this point, and for years they have been hammering at the doors of Whitehall to try to get some scheme through. They are willing to contribute very handsomely themselves, but it will have to be a compulsory scheme like this, or the few recalcitrant members among the officers themselves or among the shipowners can hold up the whole of this great reform in the mercantile marine. I would like to know whether the matter has been further considered since the Committee stage, and whether, when the Bill to which the hon. Gentleman referred is introduced next year, this important class of the community will not be left out.
Mr. RUNCIMANMay I be allowed to thank the Government for what they have done in this matter? This is, very fortunately, one of the cases whore everybody concerned has arrived at the same conclusion. The whole of the unions and societies which are interested and the shipping organisations have all come, to the same conclusion, namely, that so far as the non-domiciled seaman is concerned, he should be kept out of the scheme, and, secondly, that early steps should be taken for dealing with the insured persons' cards. If a schedule system is not the best way of doing it, I have no doubt the Government will consult the organisations concerned, so that they fan find something better, but at present I must confine myself to thanking the Government for the promise given on the Committee stage, and now on the Report stage, to deal with this very important matter next year. The pressing case for it need not be repeated here, but I should like to emphasise the point that, until some change is made, the seafaring classes do, in fact, lose a very large sum of money to which they are entitled, and the sooner we can stop that leak the better.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.