§ Mr. SPEAKERIn connection with the Amendments on Report of this Bill, I had the advantage this morning of consultation with several representative Members, who were good enough to communicate to me the points which they wished to raise. There is a large number of Amendments, and I hope it will not be necessary to have a long discussion on each one, especially as the major points are as we get towards the later Clauses.
The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson)—in page 1, line 12, after the word "man," to insert the words
or an insured woman who is the widow of an uninsured man,and the Amendment of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson)—in page 1, line 12, after the word "man," to insert the wordsor an insured woman who is the widow of an insured man,are out of Order, as they involve a charge on the Exchequer.
Mr. DALTONI beg to move, in page 1, line 13, to leave out the word "ten," and to insert instead thereof the word "twenty."
I will follow your suggestion, Mr. Speaker, and be brief, but it will not be possible while this Bill is passing through the present stage not once more to raise the question as to the amount of the pension. The purpose of the Amendment set down by hon. Members, including myself, is to increase the pension of the widow from 10s. to 20s. per week. Our arguments in favour of that have been previously marshalled, and I shall here simply draw attention to the inadequate amount proposed in the Bill, and the fact that no widow can live upon 10s. She must have that amount supplemented from elsewhere. If she has not got other sources of income she will be chargeable in some degree upon the Poor Law. That is objectionable in principle; further than that that fact will prevent one of the main objects of this Bill being carried out, namely, to lessen the burden of the rates. A further argument to which we still adhere, and which I will briefly repeat, is that this is very indefensible and unreasonable that this 2035 pension should be so very much lower than the corresponding pension of the widow of a soldier.
§ Mr. R. RICHARDSONI beg to second the Amendment.
Ten shillings per week is no use at all; it will not prevent a widow having to seek the assistance of the Poor Law guardians. The money will not even, in some cases, find a house for the widow; for that shelter which most old people of that age desire to have in the shape of a home. They will have in that case to seek to live in with somebody else.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINNo one on this side of the House has ever said that 10s. per week was sufficient to provide for the maintenance of a widow. No one on this side has ever suggested that 20s. is sufficient for that purpose, though that appears to be the view of certain hon. Members opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Then there was no point in the observations that have just been made by hon. Members opposite. As I have said in the first place, these pensions are not sufficient in themselves to enable the woman to keep a home for herself, but why should hon. Members opposite assume that everyone of these aged poor who claim the benefits under this Bill have no other resources in the world than they are going to get under the Bill? [An HON. MEMBER: "There are very few of them! "] An hon. Member says there are very few. Is that not a wide generalisation? In conversation with the Chairman of the Birmingham Board of Guardians, I was informed that he reckoned that after this Bill becomes law, no less than 25 per cent. of widows who are at present obtaining Poor Law relief from the guardians will cease to do so. That, at any rate, shows that there are some who will be placed in a position at which, with the 10s. to supplement other resources at their disposal, they will be able entirely to dispense with what they have hitherto received from the Poor Law guardians.
That is the general argument that we have put forward. These pensions are
§ not intended to be self-sufficient. They are intended to supplement other resources, and to stimulate saving on the part of the people so that they may make themselves independent. In conclusion, may I remind the Committee that if, as suggested, these pensions were doubled, the additional charge on the Exchequer would be £1,200,000; next year they would be £6,400,000 extra, rising, in 1930, to 10½ million pounds. In 1940 the figure would be 21 million pounds, and in 1960 32 million pounds. I may add that if we gave a widow a pension of 20s. up to the age of 70 that the logical and inevitable result would be that you would also have to increase the Old Age Pensions; therefore, you would have in addition to the millions that I have already mentioned double the whole cost of existing pensions. That shows that the thing is quite impossible and impracticable, and shows also the hollowness and unreality of the arguments that have been put forward by the other side.
§ Mr. SPENCERThe remarks of the right hon. Gentleman may have some relevance at some point in regard to the widows and the orphans, but I do suggest that so far as the man is concerned who has now a statutory right to a pension himself, he is not really getting value for the money paid on the ground of pension alone. I know the right hon. Gentleman must take into consideration the provision made for the wife. But what is said in respect of the married man has no value when it applies to the single man. Therefore I put it that there is some substance in what we on this side of the House say. I am quite convinced of this: that my hon. Friends here are trying to do what is quite reasonable on behalf of those they represent. I want to say just one word in passing in regard to this lower figure. No-one knows better than the right hon. Gentleman that the argument as to the burden being transferred to the Exchequer is a farce, because that burden now largely falls on the rates. Therefore, from that point of view, it is a great deal of expense.
§ Question put, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 169; Noes, 95.
2039| Division No. 303.] | AYES. | [4.0 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Balniel, Lord |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Barclay-Harvey, C. M. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Grace, John | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Pleiou, D. P. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Gretton, Colonel John | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Bethell, A. | Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne) | Raine, W. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Rawilnson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel |
| Blundell, F. N. | Harland, A. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Hartington, Marquess of | Richardson, Sir P, W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Haslam, Henry C. | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hawke, John Anthony | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar, & Wh'by) | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Hilton, Cecil | Sandon, Lord |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Campbell, E. T. | Holt, Captain H. P. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) | Spender Clay, Colonel H. |
| Christie, J. A. | Hume, Sir G. H. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Huntingfield, Lord | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hurst, Gerald B. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon Cuthbert | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cope, Major William | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Styles, Captain H. Walter |
| Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid |
| Crook, C. W. | Lane-Fox, Colonel George R. | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Loder, J. de V. | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) | Looker, Herbert William | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Maclntyra, Ian | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Macmillan, Captain H. | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Doyle, Sir N. Grattan | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Meller, R. J. | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Elveden, Viscount | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richhm'd) |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Mitchell, Sir w. Lane (Streatham) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Fermoy, Lord | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon) |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | Murchison, C. K. | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Gates, Percy | Nelson, Sir Frank | |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon, Sir John | Newman, Sir R. H, S. D. L. (Exeter) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Major Hennessy and Captain |
| Goff, Sir Park | Pennefather, Sir John | Margesson. |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Fenby, T. D. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Gillett, George M. | Murnin, H. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Paling, W. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Baker, Walter | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Groves, T. | Potts, John S. |
| Barnes, A. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Barr, J. | Hardie, George D. | Riley, Ben |
| Batey, Joseph | Harney, E. A. | Ritson, J. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Hayes, John Henry | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) |
| Bromfield, William | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Buchanan, G. | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Charleton, H. C. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Scurr, John |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Kelly, W. T. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Kennedy, T. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Connolly, M. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Lansbury, George | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawson, John James | Snell, Harry |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lee, F. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lowth, T. | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Day, Colonel Harry | March, S. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Duncan, C. | Montague, Frederick | Sutton, J. E. |
| Taylor, R. A. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) | Windsor, Walter |
| Thurtle, E. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney | Wright, W. |
| Tinker, John Joseph | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. | Westwood, J. | |
| Viant, S. P. | Whiteley, W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Wallhead, Richard C. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. |
| Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) | Warne. |
§ The following Amendments stood upon the Order Paper in the name of LORD H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK:
§ In page 1, line 15, to leave out the word "five" and to insert instead thereof the word "six."
§ In page 1, line 17, to leave out the word "three" and to insert instead thereof the word "four."
§ Mr. SPEAKERDoes the Noble Lord the Member for South Nottingham (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck) desire to move his Amendments?
§ Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKYes, Sir.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThen we will take the discussion on the two Amendments together on the first Amendment.
§ Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKI beg to move, in page 1, line 15, to leave out the word "five", and to insert instead thereof the word "six."
I hope that the Minister will be able to accept my modest little Amendment. I have not asked for what I think the children ought to have, but have confined myself to what I think there is a possibility of extracting from my right hon. Friend. This Bill will undoubtedly be the target of many criticisms when it becomes an Act of Parliament. Some of those criticisms will be legitimate, but the majority of thorn will be illegitimate. There will be many Members going round the country trying to prove that if they and their party had been in office the Act would have been a much better one. But there is a point on which. I think, criticism may legitimately be centred, and that is on the allowances to the children. We are by way of giving pensions to widows and their children which are sufficient to enable the widow to stay at home, and to relieve her of the obligation of going to the Guardians and from the obligation of going out to work. As a matter of fact, I am afraid that the Bill, as it stands, will do none of these things. We are told that these pensions are only an incentive to thrift, but I am afraid that those who represent industrial 2040 constituencies cannot be very much impressed by that argument. I myself, as representing an industrial constituency, will have great difficulty in persuading the young working man with a wife and a small family that in these hard times when wages are cut down there will be any possibility for him to put by for a, rainy day. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able somehow to produce some money from out of his sleeve or else go to the Exchequer and ask for the money for the concession for which I humbly ask.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to second the Amendment.
I am very glad to associate myself with the Noble Lord in this matter. He has made a modest proposal, and I think we should look for some substantial reasons from the right hon. Gentleman why it should not be accepted. It has been moved by one of his own followers, whom I have no fear will give way, and it is one which is not going to upset the whole finance of the Bill. It is difficult to know how the scheme is going to work out. The calculations, of course, are based on most reliable data, but nevertheless there is a wide margin for difference when the figures come into operation. It is perfectly true that 5s. is not sufficient to maintain a growing-child—that will be admitted on all hands—neither for that matter is 6s., but it would be a very graceful concession on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to give this extra 1s. I take it that the two Amendments hang together, and, where there are a number of children, of course it will mean a substantial increase to the family budget.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINMy Noble Friend asked for this concession with so much modesty and grace that it really pains me not to be able to comply with his request. I am all the more distressed, because I understand that if I had been able to make this concession I should have entered the good graces of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Com- 2041 mander Kenworthy). I am afraid that the answer must be purely financial. There is no question as to what we would like to do. It is a question what we can afford to do, and I am advised that to give this concession, modest as it may seem, would for a good many years cost another £1,000,000 a year, and would rise in time to something more. I am afraid that I have not another £1,000,000 either up my sleeve or anywhere about my person, nor have I any hope of being able to extract it from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I think my noble Friend was a little pessimistic about the ability or desire of working people to put money by even in these hard times. I do not anticipate or consider that these times are normal. We all hope that this period of depression will pass away and that there will be greater opportunities for saving. I have myself been very much impressed by the extraordinary efforts made by working people, even when they are earning much below what they have been in the habit of receiving, to put something by, and I have hopes, although these sort of conditions may be very hard for the majority of them, that there may still be a large number who will be able to have savings of their own so as to supplement the benefits under this Bill.
Miss WILKINSONThere are a good many of us who feel that this question of the children is most important. We also feel that the scheme is being over financed. We may be wrong, or we may be right; but, after, say a year or two, when he has some idea how the scheme is going to work out, will the right hon. Gentleman make this his first concession when he comes to consider any improvements in the Bill. It is the most important thing that any of us have to consider—the bringing up of a child on such a wholly inadequate sum.
Mr. BARRI want to make a short comparison between the sums paid under this scheme and those paid by the parish council in my constituency. The clerk of that council has prepared a table which shows the sums paid by them to those who are in receipt of aid, and those allowances compare very favourably with those under this Bill. Under the parish council scheme, the allowance given to a widow ranges from 10s. to 14s., and the allowance for the first child brings1 it up to 19s., whereas the grant under this scheme is 15s., an advantage of 4s. in favour of the parish council. As the number of children increases, so we find the discrepancy between the two schemes widens. Under this scheme a widow with two children gets 18s., and under the parish council scheme 23s. For a widow with three children the allowance is 21s. under this Bill, and the parish council give 27s. And a similar disparity goes on right up to the case where seven is taken as the number of the family. The widow with one or more children will have to seek Poor Law relief, and the hopes held out that these people would be taken out of the realm of Poor Law relief are dashed to the ground. The mothers will have either to get work or to seek relief from the parish councils. I think this contrast, which I have put at the request of the parish council, is a very strong argument for the grant of more liberal allowances. For that reason, and in spite of what the Minister has said, I wish to give my support to this Amendment.
§ Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCKI beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Question put, "That the word 'five' stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 141; Noes, 98.
2043| Division No. 304.] | AYES. | [4.20 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Brass, Captain W. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Briggs, J. Harold | Christie, J. A. |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Briscoe, Richard George | Clarry, Reginald George |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Brocklebank, C. E. H. | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Balniel, Lord | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Cooper, A. Duff |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Cope, Major William |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Crook, C. W. |
| Bethell, A. | Campbell, E. T. | Crookshank, Col. C. de w. (Berwick) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) |
| Davies Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ-, Belfast) |
| Davies Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Lane-Fox, Colonel George R. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Doyle Sir N. Grattan | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Smithers, Waldron |
| Elveden Viscount | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Spender Clay, Colonel H. |
| Erskine Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Loder, J. de V. | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Erskine James Malcolm Monteith | Looker, Herbert William | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Falls Sir Bertram G | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Fermoy, Lord | Macintyre, Ian | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Foxcroft Captain C. T. | Macmillan, Captain H. | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Gilmour, Lt-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Meller, R. J. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Goff, Sir Park | Milne, J.S. Wardlaw- | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Gretton, Colonel John | Monsell, Eyres Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Hanbury, C. | Morden, Col. W. Grant | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Harland, A. | Murchison, C. K. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Nelson, Sir Frank | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Pennefather, Sir John | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Hilton, Cecil | Pleiou, D. P. | Wilson, Sir C.H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Hoare Lt-Col Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Raine, W. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Holbrook Sir Arthur Richard | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Holt, Captain H. P. | Rawson, Alfred Cooper | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Horne Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W.R., Ripon) |
| Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Hume Sir G. H. | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Huntingfield, Lord | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Jackson Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Captain Margesson and Captain |
| James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Sandon, Lord | Viscount Curzon. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson W M. (Staff. Cannock) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hayes, John Henry | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Baker, Walter | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Snell, Harry |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Barnes, A. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Barr, J. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Batey, Joseph | Kelly. W. T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Kennedy, T. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Kenyon, Barnet | Thurtle, E. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Lansbury, George | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Lawson, John James | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Buchanan, G. | Lee, F. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lowth, T. | Viant, S. P. |
| Cluse, W. S. | March, S. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Clynes, Right Hon. John R. | Montague, Frederick | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Connolly, M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Warne, G. H. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Murnin, H. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dalton Hugh | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Oliver, George Harold | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Paling, W. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Westwood, J. |
| Duncan, C. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Whiteley, W. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Gillett, George M. | Potts, John S. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Riley, Ben | Windsor, Walter |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Ritson, J. | Wright, W. |
| Groves, T. | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Guest, Dr. L. H. (Southwark, N.) | Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Elland) | |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hardle, George D. | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Sir Godfrey Collins and Lieut.- |
| Harney, E. A. | Scrymgeour, E. | Commander Kenworthy. |
Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEI beg to move, in page 1, line 22, to leave out the word "widow," and to insert instead thereof the word" woman."
The object of this Amendment is to give an orphan's allowance in all cases to the orphan children of an insured woman. 2044 In this Bill an "orphan" is denned as a child both of whose parents are dead. Where a woman who is insured is married to an uninsured man, it is provided in the Bill, if the man dies first, and his widow survives him and continues in insurance, that when she dies her orphan 2045 children will get an orphan's allowance, but if the woman dies first and the husband afterwards, then the orphan children will not get any allowance at all. I hope very much that this very small Amendment will be accepted by the Minister. We have tried on other occasions to get something for these insured women. The Minister has not seen his way to give her a widow's pension when her husband dies, and he has not seen his way to meet other claims made on her behalf. This particular Amendment is an exceedingly small one, which will cost very little money, and as he has been so good as to meet me, in one way or another on all the other Amendments in my name, I hope he will not now break my run of good fortune, but grant some concession on this very small point.
I tried yesterday to find out what the cost would be, but the answer I received was that data were not available, but I think I am right in putting the cost at a very low figure. The number of cases in which a woman who is insured will continue in insurance after marriage up to the date of her death, and who is married to an uninsured man, will, in any case, be very small. On top of that, the woman, in order to come within this provision, will have to die first and the husband afterwards. Thirdly, there must be children of the marriage who are under 14, or under 16 if they be still at school. Therefore, the number of cases to which this provision will apply will be very few; but, nevertheless, I feel that this is an important point, because we are calling upon a woman to pay her contributions year by year, and if she marries an uninsured man and continues her insurance she will expect to get some recompense. The knowledge that if she dies her orphan children will get an orphan's allowance will be a considerable thing for her, and go a long way to recompense her for all the contributions she has paid. I am not quite sure whether the Minister may not make another answer, and I am not certain how the Bill stands on this point. During the Committee stage we raised the question of the woman who had been insured while single, who married an uninsured man, who thereupon became entitled to become a voluntary contributor. I am not sure whether that applies to a woman who remains in 2046 insurance after marriage, but that is not quite the point at issue here.
We are asking that the woman should get this orphan allowance on the strength of her own contributions, and that is not a very large matter. Even if the man could become a voluntary contributor while the wife remains a contributor there would be a double benefit. I ask the House to remember that these orphan children will have to be provided for, and they cannot be allowed to starve. Either they will be handed over to some working-class relative or they will go on Poor Law relief, which only means paying for their upkeep out of another pocket instead of out of taxation, and that will be a great hardship. Here you have a woman paying contributions all her life, and it does seem hard that after her death her children have no provision made for them under this Bill. For these reasons I hope the Minister of Pensions will be able to make this small concession which would confer a great boon upon a number of working women who are now called upon to contribute all their lives.
Mr. LEES-SMITHI beg to second the Amendment.
The point raised does not affect a great number of women, but it is a case of great hardship. It is quite a simple point. This Bill provides for orphan pensions, but when you come to an insured woman marrying an uninsured man if the father dies first the orphans will receive a pension, but if the mother dies first the orphans will receive no pension, although the mother would have contributed to the fund. That is a point upon which we desire to have an answer.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINThere are really two classes who would be brought in by this Amendment, although the Mover has only mentioned one. I think it is necessary to call attention to the fact that under the Amendment the orphan children of a single woman would also come into benefit. It would mean a much more considerable addition to the cost than the hon. Member has thought of.
§ Mr. SPENCERIs there any objection if the single woman is a contributor?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINYes, there is. I do not want to go into the moral aspect of the question, but in cases of that kind there would be a great practical difficulty in tracing the father and ascertaining 2047 whether he was or was not dead. I do not wish to dwell on that class of case. The hon. Member is thinking of the case of an insured woman and an uninsured man, and he says we have not made any provision in the case of a woman who marries an uninsured man. The hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) has already acknowledged that some of his suggestions have been favourably received, and I remember that one of those concessions we made was to help this particular class of case. It is a fact that we have allowed an uninsured man to become a voluntary contributor by virtue of the contributions made by his wife. In Clause 13 of this Bill Sub-section (4) it is provided that
Where an uninsured man marries an insured woman by or in respect of whom 104 contributions have been paid under this Act. he may if he gives notice within the prescribed time after the marriage and in the prescribed manner become a voluntary contributor under the Insurance Act.Therefore, this will be done in the case of an uninsured man who marries an insured woman if she has paid 104 contributions, for then he can exercise his option, and if he does that and becomes a voluntary contributor the hon. Member
§ will see that it is not necessary for the woman to continue her insurance provided that 104 contributions have been paid. In that case the man has it in his own power to provide against the contingency of his own death, and see that his orphan children are entitled to this allowance.
Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEI was thinking of the case of a Lancashire working woman remaining at work after marriage, and she is compulsorily insured even after marriage.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINAfter all, the great bulk of these cases are women who marry uninsured men, and generally they are men of the class who have got a shop or some business not within the meaning of the Act. The great bulk of these people will be in a better position than the ordinary employed contributor, and will no doubt make some provision for their children. If a man makes such provision as I have referred to, then the concession I have made enables him to become a voluntary contributor and then there is very little hardship or grievance left.
§ Question put, "That the word 'widow' stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 141; Noes, 98.
2049| Division No. 305.] | AYES. | [4.40 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Loder, J. de V. |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Davison, Sir W. H, (Kensington, S.) | Looker, Herbert William |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Dixey, A. C. | Lowe, Sir Francis William |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Doyle, Sir N. Grattan | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Balniel, Lord | Elveden, Viscount | Macintyre, Ian |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Fermoy, Lord | Meller, R. J. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- |
| Bethell, A. | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C, R. (Ary) |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Gretton, Colonel John | Morden, Col. W. Grant |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Murchison, C. K. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Harland, A. | Nelson, Sir Frank |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Haslam, Henry C. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert |
| Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Hilton, Cecil | Pennefather, Sir John |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Holt, Captain H. P. | Pielou, D. P. |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Price, Major C. W. M. |
| Christie, J. A. | Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Raine, W. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hume, Sir G. H. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Huntingfield, Lord | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hurst, Gerald B. | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Cope, Major William | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Ropner, Major L. |
| Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Crook, C. W. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Lane-Fox, Colonel George R. | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) | Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Sandon, Lord |
| Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) |
| Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. | Wilson, Ft. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Smithers, Waldron | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Spender Clay, Colonel H. | Wallace, Captain D. E. | Wood, Ht. Hon. E.(York, W, R., Ripon) |
| Sprot, Sir Alexander | Warrender, Sir Victor | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. | |
| Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) | Major Hennessy and Captain |
| Viscount Curzon. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff. Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hayes, John Henry | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Snell, Harry |
| Baker, Walter | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Barnes, A. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Barr, J. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Taylor, R. A. |
| Batey, Joseph | Kelly, W. T. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Beckett, John (Gateshead) | Kennedy, T. | Thurtle, E. |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kenyon, Barnet | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lansbury, George | Varley, Frank B. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lawson, John James | Viant, S. P. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lee, F. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Lowth, T. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Connolly, M. | March, S. | Warne, G. H. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Montague, Frederick | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Cot. D. (Rhondda) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Murnin, H. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Oliver, George Harold | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Westwood, J. |
| Duncan, C. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Whiteley, W. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Potts, John S. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Gillett, George M. | Ritson, J. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Windsor, Walter |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Wright, W. |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Groves, T. | Salter, Dr. Alfred | |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Scrymgeour, E. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hardle, George D. | Scurr, John | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. |
| Harney, E. A. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Charles Edwards. |
Mr. VIANTI beg to move, in page 2, line 1, to leave out the words "seven shillings and sixpence," and to insert instead thereof the words "twelve shillings."
To save the time of the House I move this Amendment formally.
§ Question put, "That the words 'seven shillings and sixpence' stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 140; Noes, 94.
2051| Division No. 306.] | AYES. | [4.50 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Brown, Maj. D.C.(N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Campbell, E. T. | Dixey, A. C. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Ht. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Doyle, Sir N. Grattan |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M) |
| Balniel, Lord | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Christie, J. A. | Fermoy, Lord |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Clarry, Reginald George | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Greene, W. P. Crawford |
| Bethell, A. | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Gretton, Colonel John |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Cooper, A. Duff | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Cope, Major William | Hanbury, C. |
| Briggs, J. Harold | Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Crook, C. W. | Harland, A. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) | Henn, Sir Sydney H. |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Smithers, Waldron |
| Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Hilton, Cecil | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Spender Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Morden, Col. W. Grant | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Murchison, C. K. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Nelson, Sir Frank | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Holt, Capt. H. P. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser |
| Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- |
| Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) | Pennefather, Sir John | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Wallace, Captain D. E. |
| Huntingfield, Lord | Pielou, D. P. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Price, Major C. W. M. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Raine, W. | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk, Peel | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Rentoul, G. S. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Lane-Fox, Colonel George R. | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) |
| Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Loder, J. de V. | Ropner, Major L. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Looker, Herbert William | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Lowe, Sir Francis William | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon) |
| Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) | Sandeman, A. Stewart | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) |
| Macintyre, Ian | Sandon, Lord | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Macmillan, Captain H. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley | |
| McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Margesson, Captain D. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Captain Viscount Curzon and Lord |
| Meller, R. J. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Stanley. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff, Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Hayes, John Henry | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Snell, Harry |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Baker, Walter | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Barnes, A. | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Taylor, R. A. |
| Barr, J. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Batey, Joseph | Kelly, W. T. | Thurtle, E. |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Kennedy, T. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kenyon, Barnet | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Charieton, H. C. | Lansbury, George | Varley, Frank B. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lawson, John James | Viant, S. P. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lee, F. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Livingstone, A. M. | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Connolly, M. | Lowth, T. | Warne, G. H. |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | March, S. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Montague, Frederick | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Murnin, H. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Oliver, George Harold | Westwood, J. |
| Duncan, C. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Whiteley, W. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wilson. R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Gillett, George M. | Potts, John S. | Windsor, Walter |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wright, W. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Ritson, J. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) | |
| Groves, T. | Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Elland) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. B. |
| Hardle, George D. | Scrymgeour, E. | Smith. |
| Harney, E. A. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI beg to move, in page 2, line 2, at the end, to insert the words, "in this Act called an orphan's pension."
This is merely a drafting Amendment to restore some words which were in the Bill before it reached the Committee stage, and which were accidentally taken out.
§ Amendment agreed to.
2052§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Amendment next following—in page 2, line 7, to leave out the words "sixty-five," and to insert instead thereof the word "sixty"- would involve a charge on the Exchequer, and is out of order.
Mr. RHYS DAVIESI beg to move, in page 2, line 15, to leave out the words "a day school," and to insert instead thereof the words, 2053
any educational establishment recognised by the Board of Education.When the Bill was in Committee the Minister of Health gave us the words in the Sub-section which I now desire to amend. He inserted the words "under full-time instruction in a day school." The point at issue was a simple one. In the first place, so far as I remember, the Bill meant that the widow's allowance would stop when the child reached the age of 14½ years. Then we received a concession in this Clause to the effect that the child's allowance would be paid as long as the child remained "under full-time instruction in a day school." We are moving our Amendment in the best spirit and in the hope that it will help to make, the provisions of the Bill clearer than they are now. I notice that the Minister of Health smiles but that is our object, on this occasion at any rate. When I consider the meaning of "a day school," I am not sure that some children who might otherwise be included will be included for the children's allowance. There are the elementary schools, and I know of private schools which are not controlled by a local education authority. Some of these schools are supported by grants from the local education authority. There are types of schools, secondary schools, controlled by the municipality, and other schools controlled by Governors, and only a small grant is made by the local authority to such schools. What we seek to provide in the Amendment is that all children shall receive this allowance under this Bill so long as they remain in any educational establishment recognised by the Board of Education. I do not know of any establishment not recognised by the Board of Education where these children would be educated. I would be pleased to learn that the Minister is prepared to accept this Amendment. I do not know whether he will state that there is any flaw in the wording of the Amendment, but the intention of it is that which I have stated.
Mr. BARRI beg to second the Amendment.
5.0 P.M.
I do so especially from the point of view of the educational conditions that obtain in Scotland. It has long been the tradition in Scotland that boys and girls went to the University, boys in the old days and girls at the present time, at a comparatively early age. Indeed, in bio- 2054 graphies you read that some of the most noted men in our country entered the Universities as early as 12 years of ago. The Universities at that time, and to some extent still, maintain the character of a higher school, and initiate students into various subjects that in some parts of the country are not treated before one enters the University. Intellect matures early in Scotland. I do not say that it is a mere question of precocity, and that it falls away afterwards, but you will find instances even in recent years of lads of 15 years taking the first place in the open competition on entering Glasgow University and other Universities. These will be cut out by the words as it stands at present, which would confine the benefit to the day school and not extend it to those who were in attendance at a University before 16. I can speak from experience, having been for 11 years a. member of what used to be the School Board for Glasgow, and I testify that it is the proud ambition of working widows to give their sons, and, now, their daughters, too, a university education. Some of the brightest ornaments in the professions in Scotland have in this way had a good education and been able to take up high positions. If the Minister can make this concession, it will help to encourage them, and help to give still further uplift and encouragement to those who are doing this heroic thing. We count this one of the proud glories of our country and one of the very brightest pages in the annals of the poor, and the Minister will be contributing to a very heroic purpose if he makes this concession.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINIn moving in Committee to insert the words "a day school," I explained that they were taken from the Unemployed Workers' Dependants (Temporary Provision) Act, 1921, and that I would undertake) to inquire from the Ministry of Labour what had been their experience and whether the words had been sufficient. I am advised that their experience has been that the words were quite sufficient, and, moreover, that the Amendment would have the effect of restricting instead of enlarging the position. The term "day school" has been interpreted as covering any school where the pupils receive not less than 25 hours a week instruction. In practice the words 2055 have been interpreted to include elementary schools, central and secondary schools, technical institutes and commercial schools and colleges, and even private schools. There may be cases that would not be recognised in that technical sense that would come within the interpretation of the Ministry of Labour. We intend to interpret the words in the same way as the Ministry of Labour, and therefore I think the Amendment is unnecessary.
Mr. RHYS DAVIESIn view of the information given by the Minister as to the meaning of the term "day school," I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.