§ (1) The powers and duties transferred from the Admiralty, the Commissioners of the Royal Hospital for Soldiers at Chelsea, the Army Council, and the Secretary of State for War to the Minister by the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, shall, so far as those powers and duties relate to pensions or grants to which the War Pensions Acts as amended by this Act do not apply, be re-transferred to the Admiralty, the Commissioners, the Army Council, and the Secretary of State respectively, and all powers and duties with respect to the administration of pensions vested in the Minister under subsection (3) of section two of the Air Force (Constitution) Act, 1917, other than powers 2752 with respect to pensions to which the War Pensions Acts as amended by this Act apply, shall be transferred to the Air Council, and the expressions "the present war," "the great war," or "the war" in any Warrants or Orders in Council relating to pensions, grants or allowances administered by the Minister shall have the same meaning as by virtue of this Act the expression "the present war" has in the War Pensions Acts, and all such Warrants and Orders in Council shall be construed and have effect accordingly.
§ (2) The expression "pension" in the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, and in subsection (3) of section two of the Air Force (Constitution) Act, 1917, shall, in relation to officers, include a wounds pension awarded to an officer who is at any time after the date on which this section comes into operation in receipt of retired pay, or in the case of a naval warrant officer of a pension, granted under a Warrant or Order in Council administered by the Minister.
§ (3) If any question arises as to whether any pension, grant or allowance is a pension, grant, or allowance to which the War Pensions Acts as amended by this Act apply, that question shall be referred to the Minister, and the decision of the Minister thereon shall be conclusive.
§ (4) This section shall be deemed to have had effect as from the thirtieth day after the termination of the war.
§ Mr. W. GRAHAMI beg to move to leave out Sub-section (1).
The Bill proposes in the first place to transfer the post-War pensioners of the, War Office, the Admiralty and the Air Council. The proposal is as regards these pensioners, to revert to the pre-war practice of determining their pensions. Our objection to this central and leading clause of the Bill—and on this point our opposition is vital—is that all who have any knowledge of pre-War conditions will condemn the system that obtained. Not only were the pensions inadequate—I do not specially plead that now—but the system itself was bad, because it did not entrust the settlement of these questions to the proper or appropriate authority. Since the War started we have built up a very large pensions machinery, and it is premature at this comparatively early date to hand over the determination of post-war questions to the Admiralty, the Air Force, and the War Office when we have in existence a large department for dealing with these very questions. There can be no question of economy, because every hon. Member recognises that, taking the most optimistic view of the matter, the Ministry of Pensions will continue for 20 or 30 years or it may be more. That 2753 being so, we should maintain the advantage of keeping the provision of pensioners and all the other allied questions under one roof in one department with a Minister responsible on the floor of the House and avoid reverting to the pre-War system under which, with several Ministers responsible, we sometime experienced great difficulty in getting explanations and a settlement of any demands that we put forward. We object to the pre-War system for many reasons and we see no reason why it should be resumed at the present time. There is the difficulty of treatment. In Committee upstairs it was agreed that we should have only a few thousand cases, mainly of accident, but I intended to ask how these cases are to be provided for if some, and perhaps all of the machinery of the Ministry of Pensions, is not to be employed? We shall require to rely upon the machinery although the matter may be relegated to the three departments which I have named. That does not appear to be a satisfactory arrangement, and we think that the right hon. Gentleman, without any loss from any point of view, might well delay the adoption of this proposal. We regard a great deal of this Bill as thoroughly good and we are prepared to support it, but on this point I am afraid that we must press our opposition, if necessary to a Division, because we regard the system as bad, and we certainly think that a reversal to it at the present time is premature.
§ Mr. R. RICHARDSONI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Captain LOSEBYI cannot let this occasion go by without entering a strong and emphatic protest against this Clause. It is a complete mystery to me why it has been inserted at all. I am quite unable to understand it, and I only know that I feel it is a reactionary measure of the worst description. It is a bitter disappointment to those of us who looked on the Ministry of Pensions as a Ministry capable of great powers of extension and to be increased rather than whittled down. What precisely does it mean? I believe we shall have wars of one kind or another and that we shall be getting disabled men for the next ten years, and although we have this Ministry we are going to revert to the old and bad state of things. I cannot understand why we 2754 should do so. We are going back to a state of things under which one man is going to be looked after by one department and another man by another department: thus we are reverting to the ridiculous and anomalous state of affairs which existed prior to the war. Disabled men are going to be nobody's children and to have nobody holding a main brief for them. The right hon. Gentleman knows and every Member of this House who has spoken, and certainly every member of this Select Committee, were against him and Members who have taken special interest in pensions have opposed this particular Clause. I hope that even at this last minute the right hon. Gentleman will be able to meet us and to withdraw this Clause. I regard this Clause as being so damning that it will undo any good in the Bill, which I recognise has many good points. It is an infinite pity that the Bill should be marred by this particular Clause. Does it mean that the determination in some quarters is to put an end to this particular Ministry on which many of us had centred our greatest political hopes.
Lieut-Commander HILTON YOUNGThe question of the administration of the pensions system is one which is receiving a good deal of attention at the present time from various responsible questions. It is recognised that the administration can be carried out efficiently only by whole-time officers. Obviously, it is undesirable that there should be a duplication of such service amongst various offices. I would like to ask whether there is any danger of the work being disorganised by being put into the hands of various offices, and whether the proposed arrangement would stand with the way of what is commonly agreed to be the true course, namely, the unification and centralisation of the payment of pensions.
§ Mr. MILLSMay I ask whether, if this be carried, will delete the right of appeal which was brought into existence by the Pensions Act of 1919?
§ Mr. MACPHERSONI am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment. I did my level best to meet the criticisms and the contentions of the Committee upstairs, and I thought I had gone a very long way indeed when I had made two concessions, one with regard to the administration of 2755 pre-War pensions and the other with regard to the date remaining in the Bill. The hon. Member for Central Edinburgh had made two points, and one of them is most important. He said that the future pensioner would not know to whom to apply. As a matter of fact all future war pensioners will have only one authority to whom to go. Before the great War, as the House knows, the one test for a pension was not disability but service. During the great War the one test was disability and not service. We are going back to peace conditions, when the one test will be service, and not disability. A man of the Air Service must go to the Royal Air Force for recognition of Air service, an Army man to the Army, and a Naval man to the Navy. Pensioners in future will be only about 4,000 or 5,000 a year. Suppose that among those there was a man who sought a pension because of disability. The very people who would calculate or assess the recognition of his services could also calculate the assessment for disability. There would be no additional labour required. The Ministry of Pensions was created for the Great War and for that war alone. Every Pensions Act from 1914 to 1920 refers specifically to the Great War, and so do the Royal Warrants issued during the last few years. It was therefore contemplated that in theory and in practice the Ministry of Pensions was established for one purpose only, namely, to deal as expeditiously and systematically as possible with pensions which were due to the Great War.
If I were to continue to control the pensions of the future I should require new legislation, new warrants. My powers are only temporary, and the House of Commons, by the very fact of passing those laws relating to the Ministry of Pensions, meant expressly to apply it to the great war. I can assure my hon. Friends that this is a question which has caused a great deal of anxiety to myself and to my colleagues, but I am convinced that as regards the payment of pensions in the future there are very great safeguards in the permanent committee to be established. I am convinced that it will be easier in view of the fact that in the future if you go back again you will be concerned with only one department. If the Ministry of Pensions were to introduce a new law to continue adminis- 2756 tration of future pensions you would have to go not to one department but to three. So really the simplicity and uniformity of the proposals in this Bill are a great advantage. I have shown my inclination to meet all reasonable criticism by concessions which I have put in the Bill and those which I will move shortly. There is every safeguard to all pensioners or likely pensioners up to a month after the great war, and in retaining control at the Ministry of Pensions of pre-war pensions we have gone a very long way, and future pensions will be more appropriately administered by the service departments. I hope therefore that my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment, but will let the Clause stand.
Major BARNESI do not think that the explanation which we have just heard is satisfactory. It is difficult to understand why in this particular case the Government should adopt a policy the reverse of that which they have adopted in all other cases in which they have co-ordinated the activities of various Government Departments. We have had several Bills and in each of those cases the policy of the Government has been to gather together the functions of different departments and place them all on the new Ministry. Here is a case in which we have a Ministry established in more necessitous circumstances than those of any other Ministry set up by Parliament and almost before it has got into being and settled down to do its work we are faced with the proposal that powers and duties transferred to it should now be transferred back again to the Departments from which they were taken.
§ Mr. MACPHERSONThat is not so. I am keeping all the powers which I have got and assuming some more. I am taking to myself a new power, namely that the "wound" pensions which were formerly administered by the Army, Navy, or Air Force are now administered by me.
Major BARNESI do not quite understand that explanation when one reads the Clause, which says that the powers and duties transferred shall be re-transferred to the Admiralty.
Major HENDERSONThe hon. and gallant Gentleman is not looking at the 2757 Amendment on the Paper to be proposed by the Minister.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed be left out down to the word "so"
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Major Tryon)I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "shall" ["shall, so far as those powers and duties"], to insert the words "except in."
12.0 M
These two words must be read in conjunction with the next Government Amendment a couple of lines further on. The object is to secure that the Ministry of Pensions shall in future not only administer the pensions for wounds in the Great War, but wounds, disabilities, etc., incurred in former wars. I think everyone will be agreed on this.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made: In Subsection (1) leave out the words "do not apply" ["as amended by this Act do 2758 ["Pensions Act 1916, shall, so"] stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 74; Noes, 39.
2757| Division No.218.] | Ayes. | [11.58p.m |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. | Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John | Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike |
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Glyn, Major Ralph | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Baird, Sir John Lawrence | Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) | Raper, A. Baldwin |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Greenwood, William (Stockport) | Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. |
| Barnston, Major Harry | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Remer, J. R. |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) |
| Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- | Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) | Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. |
| Breese, Major Charles E. | Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) | Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) | Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) |
| Bruton, Sir James | Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) | Smith, Harold(Warrington) |
| Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. | Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) | Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston) |
| Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. | King, Commander Henry Douglas | Sturrock, J. Leng |
| Casey, T. W. | Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) | Sugden, W. H. |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward F. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) | Sutherland, Sir William |
| Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | Lort-Williams, J. | Townley, Maximilian G. |
| Curzon, Commander Viscount | Lyle-Samuel, Alexander | Tryon, Major George Clement |
| Dawes, James Arthur | McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) | Walters, Sir John Tudor |
| Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Whitla, Sir William |
| Fildes, Henry | Macquisten, F. A. | Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) |
| Ford, Patrick Johnston | Mitchell, William Lane | Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) |
| Forrest, Walter | Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. | Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) |
| Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot | Murray, John (Leeds, West) | |
| Fraser, Major Sir Keith | Neal, Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley |
| Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham | Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool) | Ward. |
| NOES. | ||
| Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) | Loseby, Captain C. E. | Swan, J. E. |
| Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Cape, Thomas | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thorpe, Captain John Henry |
| Carter, W. (Nottingham, Mansfield) | Morgan, Major D. Watts | Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) |
| Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) | O'Grady, Captain James | Waterson, A. E. |
| Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Wild, Sir Ernest Edward |
| Entwistle, Major C. F. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) |
| Gould, James C. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) | Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) |
| Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) | Rose, Frank H. | Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) |
| Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) | Sexton, James | |
| Grundy, T. W. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) | Sitch, Charles H. | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Mills. |
| Hartshorn, Vernon | Spencer, George A. | |
| Hayday, Arthur |
§
not apply"], and insert instead thereof the words
apply or to pensions or grants awarded in respect of wounds, disabilities, or other matters suffered, incurred, or happening in any war which occurred before the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen.
§ In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "Section" ["this Section comes into operation"], and insert instead thereof the word "Sub-section."
§ Leave out Sub-section (4), and insert instead thereof
§ (4) The provisions of Sub-section (2) of this Section shall have effect as from the first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty, and the other provisions of this Section shall have effect as from the thirtieth day after the date fixed under The Termination of the Present War (Definition) Act, 1919, as the date of the termination of the present war.—[Mr. Macpherson.]