7. Mr. C. PALMERasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that men who escaped arrest for desertion during the War have since received a certificate of protection, he will consider the justice of advising a general amnesty for all men now serving imprisonment for desertion during the War?
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSON (Parliamentary Secretary, War Office)It is not a fact that "men who escaped arrest for desertion during the War have since received a certificate of protection." In certain cases under the provisions of paragraphs 518 and 519 of the King's Regulations protecting certificates have been issued. In the case raised in the question by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, on the 29th June, the protecting certificate was issued. because the soldier concerned (a conscientious objector) was tried by court-martial in June, 1918, and sentenced to a year's imprisonment with hard labour. He appeared before the Central Tribunal, and was recommended for work under the Brace Committee, and in consequence was transferred to Section W of the Army Reserve. Shortly after the Armistice, he left the Home Office Centre without permission, and in consequence was formally recalled to the Colours in accordance with the scheme of the maintenance of discipline at the Home Office Centres, with which I think this House is familiar. He disregarded the recall and was subsequently declared a deserter, which of course technically he was.
In this particular case I think it will be agreed that no useful purpose would have been served by trying this man by court-martial and punishing him for the technical desertion which he committed, whereas as a matter of fact the real offence, if that be the proper expression, was leaving the Home Office Centre without permission at a time when he was not subject to military law, having previously been transferred to Section W of the Army Reserve. In regard to the latter part of the hon. Member's question, a 2125 very liberal amnesty has already been extended to all prisoners, whatever may have been the nature of their offences, and for the latest information on this subject, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Norwich, on 8th July.
Mr. PALMERWill the right hon. Gentleman reply to the last part of my question as to a general amnesty?
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Churchill)That is the question.
Mr. PALMERI am asking the right hon. Gentleman to give me an answer. Will he grant a general amnesty to all men who are now serving reduced sentences for desertion?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLNo, Sir.
§ Mr. LAWSONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are very decent citizens who, for one thing and another, did desert after having served two or three years overseas during the War, and did not return to their units? They have come home and in some cases, in two cases within my own knowledge, have been marched through the streets under an escort. Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that this matter should be settled definitely one way or the other?
§ Mr. STANTONThey deserved it, too!
§ 12. Mr. N. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for War what is being done in the case of men who deserted from the Army about three years ago; and whether the War Office is still taking legal steps against those who so deserted?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIf the hon. Member will refer to Section 161 of the Army Act, he will find that mutiny, desertion and fraudulent enlistment are offences which are excluded from the general limitation of three years which applies to other offences. Deserters, therefore, when they surrender or are apprehended must be disposed of in accordance with the Army Act and King's Regulations.
§ Mr. MACLEANIn view of the fact that a small number of men deserted just at the time of the Armistice, does the right hon. Gentleman not think it would allay a great deal of unrest in the country if he gave instructions for the withdrawal of charges or of any action against such men?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI do not think the course we are taking is a harsh one. Whenever there are exceptional circumstances, such as in the case I referred to the other day, we shall give a protecting certificate.
§ Mr. KILEYIs the right hon. Gentleman not prepared to take some action to reduce the very vindictive sentences now passed upon these men, in view of the fact that their wives and children are left absolutely destitute while the men are undergoing long terms of imprisonment?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIf the hon. Member will give me any instance, I shall be glad to look into it. I have not heard of vindictive sentences being passed.
Mr. PALMERIn view of the fact that we need to get men for the new Army, would not a little leniency in this matter create a favourable public opinion?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI do not agree at all that we could afford to relax our punishment for the very grave offence of desertion. There is a great deal of desertion going on now, infinitely more than before the War. I cannot take any action which would seem to indicate that desertion from the Army on active service is not serious.
§ Mr. STANTONMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would be doing justice to those who died for their, country in being "easy" to those people who deserted for their own convenience? Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to do all he can to penalise these people, remembering the sacrifices of those who volunteered all they they had? Pandering to the Bolshies! [Laughter. ] Silly old Bolshies!
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf the hon. Member has any observations to make to his friends, would he kindly make them in the Lobby?
§ Mr. STANTONI beg your pardon, Sir, but if a man happens to reply, would you apply the same ruling to one who gives a silly laugh like the hon. Member opposite?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI cannot stop hon. Members from laughing.
§ Mr. STANTONVery well; you will not stop me from speaking.