HC Deb 09 July 1920 vol 131 cc1876-8

The Minister may, after consultation with the Board of Trade, make Regulations under this Act modifying in such manner as he thinks proper the provisions of this Act in their application to masters, seamen, and apprentices to the sea service and sea fishing service, and in particular, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision, and such Regulations may provide:—

  1. (a) for the exclusion from this Act of any masters, seamen, or apprentices who are neither domiciled nor have a place of residence in the United Kingdom, and for the payment by the employers or such masters, seamen, or apprentices of contributions at the same rates as would have been payable if the masters, seamen or apprentices had been employed persons within the meaning of this Act;
  2. (b) for the administration in the prescribed manlier of the funds arising from the contributions paid by employers in respect of masters, seamen, or apprentices who are exempt from the provisions of this Act, and for the objects towards which any such funds may be applied.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I beg to move, after the word "Trade" ["with the Board of Trade to insert the words, "in the case of mercantile seamen, or with the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, or the Secretary for Scotland or the Chief Secretary for Ireland, as the case may be, in the case of fishermen."

Lieut.-Colonel A. MURRAY

I beg to second the Amendment.

Dr. MACNAMARA

I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that this Amendment is not necessary. The effect would be that the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Secretary for Scotland, or the Chief Secretary for Ireland, as the case might be, would have to be consulted as to fishermen and the Board of Trade as to mercantile seamen. The position with regard to the jurisdiction of these three separate Departments is generally this. The Board of Trade jurisdiction roughly is the ad- ministration of the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, which applies to fishermen, while the jurisdiction of the other Departments may include matters affecting actual fishing operations and the general welfare of the men in the industry. Broadly, the Board of Trade has jurisdiction over fishermen as seamen, and the other Departments have jurisdiction over them as fishermen. The Amendment makes a distinction between mercantile seamen and fishermen. The Clause only relates to sea fishermen, and not to other fishermen, and sea fishermen are nearly all seamen under the jurisdiction of the Board of Trade. I will give this undertaking, that the Departments other than the Board of Trade will in practice be consulted. Under those circumstances, I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press the Amendment.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr. MACNAMARA

I beg to move to leave out the words "regulations under this Act," and to insert instead thereof the words "a special order."

3.0 P.M.

I put this Amendment on the Paper because of representations made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Sir T. Royden) and other hon. Members who, in the Amendment which immediately follows mine, desire to provide that under this Clause there shall be applied the limitation of Clause 16 as regards contributions. I go further in my second and third Amendment, and I make it clear that we do not in this Clause intend to vary contributions at all, and, therefore, from that point of view, I give my hon. Friend more than he asks. In the latter part of his Amendment my hon. Friend asks that, "No Regulations under this Section shall be deemed to be valid until they have been approved by Resolutions of both Houses of Parliament." I really cannot agree to that. It is making what I submit, with great respect, is an impracticable proposal. A special Order is far better than Regulations to this extent, that a public inquiry can be held if objection is raised, and an Order can lie for a certain number of days. I have met my hon. Friend on the other two Amendments, and I hope he will be satisfied.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

After the word "Act" ["provisions of this Act in their application"] insert the words "[other than provisions determining the rates of contributions]."

Leave out the word "regulations" ["any such regulations may"] and insert instead thereof the words "special order."

In paragraph (a) after the word "payable" ["as would have been payable if "] insert the words "by them as employers' contributions."

In paragraph (b) leave out the word "exempt" ["who are exempt from"] and insert instead thereof the word "ex eluded."—[Dr. Macnamara.]