CLAUSE 18.—(Power to provide for insurance against unemployment in any industry by means of special scheme.) (Hansard, 9 July 1920)

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
I beg to move at the end of Sub-section (3) to insert a new Sub-section— (4) A special scheme should not apply to any person other than persons who are employed persons within the meaning of this Act. The object of this is to make clear that persons who do not come within the purview of the general scheme, boys and girls under 16, agricultural labourers and domestic servants, should not be brought in under the special part of the Act.

§ Mr. T. GRIFFITHS
I beg to move, in Sub-section (6), to leave out the words "Provided that a body constituted for the purpose of a special scheme shall not, except with the consent of the Minister, undertake any duties other than duties under the scheme."

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
I am prepared to accept the Amendment. The words were inserted because of fears expressed by approved societies. The conditions having changed, the words appear to be no longer necessary.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (7), to insert a new Sub-section— (8) Where a special scheme for any industry comes into force on or before the first day of the first complete insurance year next after the commencement of this Act there shall be paid out of the unemployment fund to the body charged with the administration of the scheme such sum as may be determined to be approximately equivalent to the amount of the contributions paid by employers and employed persons during the period between the commencement of this Act and the date on which the scheme comes into force in respect of employed persons while employed in the industry together with such sum as may be determined to be approximately equivalent 1871 to the amount to which, having regard to the number of the contributions aforesaid, the body charged with the administration of the scheme would if the scheme had been in force during the period aforesaid have been entitled under Sub-section (5) of this section, after deducting a sum to be determined to be approximately equivalent to the amount paid or payable out of the unemployment fund to employed persons in the industry at any time before they cease to be entitled to benefit under the general provisions of this Act, together with such sum as may be determined to be approximately equivalent to the rateable part of the costs of administering the general provisions of this Act. In this Sub-section the expression "determined" means determined in accordance with regulations made under this Act by the Minister with the approval of the Treasury. This Amendment is intended to deal with the position which will arise if a special scheme is not ready to come into operation at the date of the commencement of the Act. Let us assume that this Bill is passed by the end of this month. I hope very much it will not be delayed later, because otherwise it will be quite impossible to get in order the vast amount of administrative machinery and the millions of books and stamps for floating efficiently this great scheme. The date I shall be compelled to suggest is 8th November, and that will allow a period of only three months after the passing of the Act for the societies to prepare their schemes. They ought to be allowed to do the work circumspectly, and to complete the arrangements with care. If they find it impossible to prepare their schemes by 8th November, this Amendment meets the situation that would arise. I propose that the latest date by which a special scheme may be set up, in order to secure the advantage of this provision, shall he the end of the first insurance year, 3rd July, 1921.

§ Lieut-Commander KENWORTHY
I have not read this Amendment, but may we take it that the insured person is not going to lose by this later date being put into the Bill?

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
I do not see how he can.

§ Mr. GRIFFITHS
I beg to move as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "during the period between the commencement of this Act and the date on which," and to insert instead thereof the words "prior to"
1872 The proposed Amendment will only come into operation from the date when the Act becomes law. I have here the report of the actuary as to unemployment insurance, in which he states that there were accumulated funds of £19,000,000 and, with the interest, there will be at the end of the year about £20,000,000 partly paid by the employers and partly by the employed in different industries of the country. When these schemes are going to be provided between industrial councils or employers and workmen we want the Minister to give us a portion of that £20,000,000 because it is the money of the employers and workmen. That would enable the Federation of the Steel Trade, which extends from Scotland to Wales, to have a nucleus in the formation of a scheme to deal with an employment and possibly with accident and other benefit. In order to make that scheme successful, and it is already being discussed, we ought to get a part of that £20,000,000. We want the Minister to deduct administrative expenses and the monies that have been paid out for unemployment. Employers are taking far more responsibility than they did in days previous to the War in so far as the interests of the workmen are concerned, and they are beginning to realise that they must look after the employed side of the industry and the accident side, and generally as to the welfare of the men. All this will cost money, and seeing that we have got these funds at our disposal I think from the standpoint of justice this should be dated from 1911 in so far as our industry and other industries are concerned.

§ Dr. MACNAMARA
I am sure my hon. Friend realises that his proposal would enormously widen the scope of the Amendment, which covers the period from the date of the commencement of the Bill until the date on which the special scheme comes into force. My hon. Friend asks us to go back to 1911 which would have the effect of upsetting the whole financial basis of the Bill. His proposal is in effect a negation of the principle of insurance. I really cannot in a proposal to cover the period between the passing of the Act and the coming into force of the special scheme agree to the suggestion that I should carry my proposal right back to the Act of 1911. I could not do so under any possible circumstances.