HC Deb 09 August 1920 vol 133 cc113-20

  1. 1. Names, sex, age.
  2. 2. Occupation, profession, trade, or employment.
  3. 3. Nationality, birthplace, race, language.
  4. 4. Place of abode and character of dwelling.
  5. 5. Education.
  6. 6. Infirmity or disability.
  7. 7. Condition as to marriage, relation to head of family, parentage, issue.
  8. 8. Any other matters with respect to which it is desirable to obtain statistical information with a view to ascertaining the social or civil condition of the population.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, in paragraph 4, to omit the words "and character of dwelling."

I do not know how the right hon. Gentleman is going to defend these words. In the 1910 Act you had to give the number of rooms, but that apparently is left out now. Even that proposal gave a considerable amount of unnecessary trouble, and what does it matter whether you live in a house with five rooms or eight rooms. All these little unnecessary matters give great annoyance to the subject without giving any corresponding advantage to the State. I should like to know what is the object of these words.

Dr. ADDISON

I hope this Amendment will not be accepted. In cases of overcrowding this information is fundamental. We want to know how many rooms the people occupy, and then we shall be able to obtain fairly exact information with regard to the condition of the population so far as housing conditions are concerned. If these words were omitted you could only obtain the address of the people, and that would be of no use to anybody except the registration agents, and would serve no real statistical purpose. I agree that the phrase "character of dwelling" is rather vague, but it is as good as any other. The questions which were asked in 1911 were of the greatest possible consequence in connection with the social condition of the people and as to the extent to which overcrowding was taking place. I am afraid the right hon. Baronet has somewhat misinterpreted the meaning of these words. I think they are most important, and should be retained.

Sir F. BANBURY

If the words are going to be used in a reasonable manner, I have nothing to say against them. I am rather inclined to think the words "character of dwelling" might be construed to mean that you have to describe the architecture, and in that case if the owner gives a wrong answer, will he be liable to three months' hard labour? If these words are going to be interpreted with reasonableness I will not press my Amendment, and will ask leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move to leave out paragraph 5.

What is the object of putting education in this Schedule? Have you got to put in "board school" if you were educated at a board school, or "Oxford" if you were educated at Oxford? What service will be done when those words have been put in. I think this proposal is quite unnecessary. We have to remember that the vast majority of the people who have to fill up these forms are busy, and have not much time, and they are not accustomed to filling up forms. I have to fill up a good many forms, and I nearly always fill them up wrongly, not intentionally, of course, but they are so complicated that the spaces where you have a great deal to put in are nearly always very small, and the places where you have almost nothing to insert are always very large. Often I write things in the wrong space and scratch them out, and often wish I had never been born. I hope my right hon. Friend will accept this Amendment, unless he can give me some very strong reasons for retaining it.

Mr. RAWLINSON

I think the Minister of Health has told us before that there is nothing in this Schedule contrary to what was proposed by the Act of 1910; but paragraph 4 is clearly outside the Act of 1910. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman was willing that paragraph 5 should be struck out, and if it is necessary to have an educational census it should come under Clause 6 of the Bill.

Dr. ADDISON

I accept this Amendment, and perhaps I may be allowed to that I am willing to accept the next Amendment for the same reason.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: Leave out paragraph "6.—(Infirmity or disability.)"—[Mr. Dennis Herbert.]

Mr. RAWLINSON

I beg to move, in paragraph 7, to leave out the words, "parentage, issue."

I would like to point out that, as far as the word "issue" is concerned, the Act of 1910 was confined simply and solely to the case of persons who are or have been married. The objection which was raised in 1910 was to the Government having power to ask unmarried women as to the number of their illegitimate children or any question of that kind, because it was calculated to cause a great deal of feeling. The object of my Amendment is to prevent questions of that kind being put. There is an Amendment on the Paper next to mine to insert the words, "and in the case of persons who are or have been married," and I think that if that were adopted it would largely secure what I want. In 1910 the greatest feeling existed against the Government having power to ask questions as to the legitimacy of people living in a particular house. That objection applies equally to the use of the word "parentage," because if the head of a house is to inquire of a servant who her father is and it turns out that the woman is illegitimate, much worry and trouble may be caused. I remember one instance in which a member of my own family was responsible for a particular return, and discovered that a person was illegitimate. It was a secret jealously guarded, and certainly ought never to be passed on to anybody else. Great friction is therefore caused by a question of this nature. The right hon. Gentleman may suggest that we can trust him not to put such a question, and he may tell us that he has settled in his own mind the draft question which is to be put, but I want to point out that the Bill now before the Committee does not apply to this census only, it will give power to every Government every five years in the future to take a census in the terms of this Bill, and therefore we must be very careful indeed not to allow this Bill to go through and to grant powers of the kind indicated here. If in years to come the Government find it necessary to obtain powers of this kind they can, under another Clause, bring in a Resolution asking the House to give them the power.

Dr. ADDISON

I am sorry I cannot accept this Amendment. If it were only from the point of view put forward by the hon. and learned Member there would be a good deal to say for it, but a very much wider question is involved. It is evident, for example, that it is most important to know how many children there are in a family under sixteen years of age. Necessary vital statistics are involved in this. So far as I know, under the census of 1910 no friction was caused. It is necessary to have the details of a family, the ages, and so forth. My hon. and learned Friend's objecton is that some people may be gravely embarrased by these questions. As a matter of fact, what happened in the last census was that the question of illegitimacy was not raised directly. It was found quite possible to avoid the embarrassment which my hon. and learned Friend referred in individual cases, and under the circumstances I do not see how I can possibly accept this Amendment, because it would destroy the value of the census.

Mr. RAWLINSON

I do not think there is much difference between us. The speech of my right hon. Friend was based on the absolutely false assumption that he had the power under the 1910 Act to get this information, and that he got it without any friction. As a matter of fact, he had not the power.

Dr. ADDISON

Yes, the question of parentage was raised under that Act.

Mr. RAWLINSON

No, the words were "born of the marriage." Illegitimate children are not born of any marriage. That is exactly the point of difference between us. I am only asking my right hon. Friend to continue the power which was contained in the Act of 1910. I am in favour of getting all the information about legitimate children, their ages, and so on. I know if that were withheld it would do away with the value of the census. I am asking my right hon. Friend to confine himself to the powers which he had under the Act of 1910, and I submit that his powers under that Act were confined to the cases of the children "born of the marriage." Still, if he will accept the words, "and in the case of persons who are or have been married," I shall be content. I believe that the substitution of those words would eliminate an exceedingly difficult question. This is not a mere point of form. It is a question of substance, and I shall ask the House to go to a Division on it if the right hon. Gentleman cannot meet me. I submit that the power here provided is a most objectionable one.

Mr. D. HERBERT

I support what has fallen from my hon. and learned Friend, but I do not think that his suggestion quite meets his own point. He wants the word "parentage" omitted altogether. He wants to get information as to the families of married men or women, and where the children are illegitimate that fact should not be disclosed.

Dr. ADDISON

I think I can meet both hon. Members if I put in after "issue" the words "born in marriage."

Mr. RAWLINSON

That goes a long way to meet me, but I wanted the word "parentage" omitted altogether.

Dr. ADDISON

I cannot do that.

Mr. RAWLINSON

What I want to avoid is, asking whether a person is legitimate or illegitimate. I quite agree that the greater half of my grievance has been met by my right hon. Friend, but the other half still remains.

Lieut.-Colonel FREMANTLE

The main value of a census is from the point of view of public health statistics. One of the most important questions at the present day is the question of infant mortality. That question has to be subdivided, and the main sub-division is as to whether the children are legitimate or illegitimate. Innumerable social and public health questions turn upon that point, and it is impossible to go into them scientifically at the present moment. It would give us a great deal of help, as medical officers of health, if we retained both of these requirements as originally drafted, and I should be extremely sorry if the right hon. Gentleman gave way, even in the direction which has been suggested.

Major BARNETT

I have the greatest possible sympathy with my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment, but I feel considerable difficulty in understanding what would be the position of these children if it were adopted. Would the result be to leave out of account all illegitimate children?

Dr. ADDISON

Of course, they will be included under the other heads; it is only in the case of this class of questions that they will be excluded. I have gone a long way to meet my hon. and learned Friend.

Mr. KILEY

Do I understand that the Minister wants to know whether a grownup person was born in wedlock or not? If that is so, may I ask what the object is?

Mr. RAWLINSON

I do not think I can do any more at the present moment. I have put my point quite clearly, and, as I understand that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to meet me, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Mr. D. HERBERT

As the right hon. Gentleman shook his head just now, I should like to appeal to him either to leave out the word "parentage" or to state his reason for retaining it. If it remains in, a Minister who takes his place in the future may require every individual in the country to give particulars of his or her parentage, whether legitimate or otherwise.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr. ADDISON

I beg to move, in Paragraph 7, after the word "issue," to add the words "born in marriage."

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Sir E. Cornwall)

The hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Herbert) has an amendment later, to insert, after the word "parentage," the words, "and in the case of persons who are or have been married." If I accept the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, the hon. Member's Amendment will not be in order, and I take it that this will replace it.

Mr. HERBERT

Yes, I do not want to press my Amendment. It does not deal with the question on which I appealed to the right hon. Gentleman.

Dr. ADDISON

I have endeavoured to explain this two or three times, and that is why I did not rise to answer the question of the hon. Member for White-chapel (Mr. Kiley).

Mr. LORDEN

If these words be inserted, I cannot see how the illegitimate children are going to be enumerated. I understand that it is desired to have the Census correct, and it is no use if it does not include every person, whether legitimate or illegitimate. If it is to be limited to persons born in marriage, then there will be no responsibility upon anyone to put in any illegitimate children that there may be in the house.

Dr. ADDISON

All the children will be enumerated, of course, under Item 1 of the Schedule. All that would happen would be that these particulars would not be required in respect of any particular child or children.

Amendment agreed to.

Question put, "That the Schedule, as amended, be the Schedule of the Bill."

Mr. KILEY

I return to the point at which we left off a few minutes ago. I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would make it quite clear why he wishes to insist upon an adult person being compelled to disclose whether he was born in wedlock or not. I can quite understand that there would be some advantage in having children so described, but he is willing to waive his desire in the case of children, while he insists in the case of adults. At any rate, that is as I understand it. If I am incorrect, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will make it clear, and will also make clear the reason why he desires to have that information. If there be no real reason, perhaps, between now and the Report stage, he would give the matter further consideration.

Mr. RAWLINSON

Under paragraph 1 of the Schedule, every individual in England will have to be returned. The question is whether he is bound to answer at the same time as to his parentage. As the Bill stands at the present moment, he can be called upon to state whether he is legitimate or illegitimate, and that is what I object to.

Bill reported, with Amendments.

As amended, considered.

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