HC Deb 09 August 1920 vol 133 cc129-35

(1) The Chief or Under-Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant shall prepare and issue such forms and instructions as he may think necessary for the taking of the census, and the census shall be taken by means of and in the manner prescribed by those forms and instructions, and no question shall be put for the purpose of obtaining information other than the information required by those forms and instructions.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "Provided that such forms and instructions shall previously have been submitted for the approval of Parliament."

The object of this Amendment is that the House shall have an opportunity of seeing the form of instructions and approving the same. We have had a very animated and somewhat protracted discussion this afternoon as to the exact schedules and form that would be used in the English Bill, and certain hon. Members pointed out that a great deal of pain might be caused if certain information was asked for, especially as regards the legitimacy of children. In I the case of Ireland, we are asked to give carte blanche to the executive to issue any form and any schedules, with any questionaire, they like. I do not suggest that objectionable questions will be put; nevertheless, it is only right that whereas in England we have had the opportunity of approving the instructions, the same principle ought to apply to the Irish Bill. In connection with the English Bill the Minister of Health, as the result of representations made on the Second Reading, proposed the insertion of the following words: Provided that if by part of any such Order it is proposed to prescribe any particulars with respect to any of the matters mentioned in paragraph 8 of the Schedule to this Act, that part of the Order shall not have effect unless both Houses by Resolution approve that part of the draft, or, if any modifications in that part are agreed to by both Houses, except as so modified. We have insisted on the control of Parliament in the sort of question that can be put to people in this country, and we ought to have the same control in regard to Ireland. I do not suggest any fell design in regard to the occupants of the Treasury Bench; yet it is possible that some questions might be put for the purpose of obtaining information with which to dragoon or persecute, or possibly, as some hon. Members would say, to keep in order the Irish people. Certainly we ought to have a check on the questionaire that may be put for the purpose of the census by the Executive at Dublin Castle.

Mr. HENRY

The form in which the Clause is drawn is precisely the same that has been used for a great many years. My hon. and gallant Friend will see that as regards Ireland, Clause 2 contains the particulars required for the census, and there is no schedule such as exists in the English Bill. One Amendment has been incorporated in the Irish Bill, namely, that no application can be made for information as to the number of children except in the case of persons married or having been married. Therefore, the Irish Bill is very much more limited than the English Bill, and there is no suggestion that any form that may be issued can be calculated to cause unnecessary pain to any person.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

The Attorney-General for Ireland has not quite met my objection. I have read the Bill very carefully, and it seems to me that Clause 5 has an over-riding effect in regard to Clause 2, because it says issue such forms and instructions as he may think necessary for the taking of the census. The right hon. Gentleman is a very distinguished lawyer, and I am not a lawyer of any sort, and I should like to know whether those words do not in fact override the words in Clause 2.

Mr. HENRY

I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that Clause 2 indicates the intention of Parliament and it over-rides Clause 5 to the extent that it gives the various heads under which the Chief Secretary may ask for information.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

I am much obliged, but I should like to have information on another point. Sub-section (5) of Clause 2 says Every enumerator may ask all such questions of all persons within his district respecting themselves or the persons constituting their respective families, and respecting such further particulars, as may be necessary for the purpose of taking the said accounts. These enumerators, I suppose, will be guided by the heads laid down in Subsection (2) of the same clause. Nevertheless, we ought to be able to see the instructions and to see that they are bound down closely to them. What we fear is that over-zealous enumerators may ask certain questions of a political character under the guise of the census. My right hon. Friend knows his fellow-countrymen better than I do, and he must know that objection will be made.

Mr. HENRY

I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that what he dreads will not occur for two reasons. First, because it would not be necessary to ask for the political views of any persons because they would be well known beforehand, and, secondly, he will see from Subsection 5 of Clause 2 that Every enumerator may ask all such questions … as may be necessary for the purpose of taking the said accounts. That throws him back to Sub-section (2) of Clause 2, and the account that is to be taken by the enumerator is limited to the various heads mentioned in that Clause. Therefore, the danger which the hon. Member apprehends cannot arise.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. HENRY

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add a new Sub-section—

[(2) The expenses incurred with the approval of the Treasury for the purposes of the census shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.]

Captain BENN

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end to insert the words, "provided that such expenses shall not exceed the sum of fifty thousand pounds."

We are told in the White Paper that the expenses are to be £90,000, spread over several years, so that the effect of this proviso will merely mean that in the first year not more than £50,000 can be voted. If more money was actually required it could come in the Estimates for the succeeding years, and no doubt the effect of that would be to over-ride the not too strict limitation in the Statute.

This Amendment does do something to limit the amount of money which is being spent on what we think is a totally unnecessary work, or rather, what we regard as work which will turn out to be a nullity. No one believes that there will be a census taken in Ireland. The Government are only hound to pass this Bill because it was put on the list of Bills to be taken, and it has to be passed by this House, which always follows the proposals made by the Government.

The CHAIRMAN

I must point out to the hon. and gallant Member that the Amendment would not have the effect he thinks.

Captain BENN

I well remember the case of money granted for the building of schools, and there was a Statute which forebade Parliamentary grants being made for the building of sectarian schools, but it was held that the grant of money in an Estimate when the Estimate itself became a Statute overrode the contract in any prior Statute.

Mr. HENRY

The expenses to be incurred are to be incurred with the approval of the Treasury, and only with the approval of the Treasury, and that, I submit, sufficiently safeguards the position. The effect of the Amendment would be that no matter how effectively the census might work out, it would be impossible to spend more than £50,000 on it. I hold that the same basis of calculation as will apply in England and Scotland should be allowed in Ireland, and that that country should not be given an additional grievance.

Sir D. MACLEAN

The explanation by which the hon. and learned Gentleman hopes to secure the support of the Committee is that the Treasury can be depended upon. That might have been so years ago, but we have to judge these things by our experience. What has been our experience in regard to the expenditure of many millions of money over which the Treasury was supposed to exercise effective control? It is that the control of the Treasury is quite nominal. I do not know whether my hon. and gallant Friend will consent to withdraw the Amendment to the Amendment, so that I can try the learned Attorney-General with another Amendment, limiting the sum to be expended during the first year to £10,000?

Captain BENN

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment to proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir D. MACLEAN

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to add at the end the words "the expenditure for the first year to be limited to ten thousand pounds."

Does any sane person think for a moment that during the next year there is likely to be any chance whatever of a census in Ireland? If conditions arise in Ireland under which a census can be taken, then there will be an Irish authority for taking it, and not this House. Ireland is now in a state of chaos, if not of, de facto, civil war, and the Government are asking this House to support them by giving authority for the expenditure of £94,000. Common sense demands that, at any rate for the first year, we should put an effective check on that.

Mr. HENRY

In view of the fact that the date fixed for taking the census is 24th April, 1921, it would be impossible to accept the Amendment to the proposed Amendment, because £10,000 would obviously be an absurd expenditure. The taking of a census is not a very controversial matter in Ireland. The people, having so much sanity, may be trusted to see that they return their own numbers. I can assure my hon. Friend that they will not find a majority in Ireland turning itself into a minority.

Sir D. MACLEAN

I understand the learned Attorney-General says that the Government are really proposing to proceed with the preliminary arrangements for taking this census. No more foolish expenditure has been contemplated, even in the long record of foolishness of this Government. It is an utterly absurd and ridiculous thing to do until Ireland is in a condition in which you may expect to be able to get a census.

Mr. HOLMES

If I may use the words of the Prime Minister, it appears to me that no more futile or inadequate contribution has been made to the legislation of the country by a great statesman than this proposal, first to take a census in the present financial year, and, secondly, to leave it to the Treasury to supervise the expenditure. The Attorney-General is apparently quite satisfied with the control of the Treasury. We have seen something of the expenditure which the Treasury has passed and the House of Commons has turned down. There is the case of a Labour Exchange at Manchester. An expenditure of £750,000 was passed by the Treasury as a necessary national expenditure, but the Government are compelled to withdraw it because the sense of the House was against such a waste of money. If the Attorney-General imagines that the nation is being protected in the direction of economy by any Treasury supervision, he is labouring under a complete delusion.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

I want to make a prophecy. The hon. and learned Gentleman has told us that he thinks the census will be taken. I say that it will not be taken by this Government at all, but will be taken as a matter of propaganda and as a way of showing their authority by the Sinn Fein Government. If Sinn Fein can hold courts in spite of the efforts of the police and military to suppress them, and can keep order on racecourses and stop illicit stilling, it will take a census. Sinn Feiners will do it as a matter of pride, and they will pay for it. The learned Attorney-General may take a census in the North East, and it would be very interesting, and I daresay the Dial Eireann will be prepared to put the statistics of the South and West at the disposal of His Majesty's Government. That, too, would be interesting.

Major BARNES

We have before us a proposal to limit the expenditure in the present financial year to £10,000. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend is tied to that figure or whether some small advance on it might be made. According to the Memorandum the expenditure for four years does not work out at more than £20,000 a year. Up to the end of the present financial year a comparatively small amount only can be spent. Could not the Government accept some limitation of the amount?

Amendment to proposed Amendment negatived.

Original Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 (Certificates of accounts and abstracts of returns) ordered to stand part of the Bill.