CLAUSE 15.—(Power to Secretary of State, to make rules.) (Hansard, 9 August 1920)

§ Captain BOWYER
I beg to move, to leave out the words and may by those rules vary or add to the Second Schedule to this Act, and references in this Act to that Schedule shall be considered as references to the Schedule as for the time being so varied or added to. 77 This Clause deals with the powers of the Secretary of State to make rules, and the words I move to delete expressly give the Secretary of State the power to amend and alter the Second Schedule, and the Second Schedule deals with the particulars, which are to be entered in a book which is to be kept by firearms dealers. I move this on two specific grounds. First of all, generally, here we are enacting special words in an Act of Parliament, and we say that certain things shall be done. If these words remain in the Bill the Secretary of State after the Act has reached the Statute Book can alter the Second Schedule just as much as he pleases, and can undo many of the benefits which have been arrived at, after some contention, in Committee and in the various stages of the Bill. It is on that broad question of principle that I think these words should not be allowed to remain in the Bill. Secondly, if I might bring the issue down to a specific case, the Secretary of State for War might easily come to the conclusion that all ammunition makers should present a daily record, for report, of what ammunition they have in stock, and such an order would be perfectly within their power, and would make the life of anyone engaged in the occupation of making ammunition or of dealing in firearms absolutely intolerable. I hope the Secretary of State will agree to the deletion of these words, because the words say and may by those rules vary or add to the Second Schedule to this Act, and references in this Act to that Schedule shall be considered as references to the Schedule as for the time being so varied or added to. The particulars, presumably, were very carefully decided upon by the Home Office before this Bill was brought in, and during the time it has been under consideration of the House, and I do submit that the particulars at which we have now arrived, and which form part of the Second Schedule, are quite ample and sufficient to meet all the necessities of the case.

§ Mr. KILEY
I beg to second the Amendment.
It has been my misfortune to have from time to time to approach the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary on similar powers which he has the right to administer, and I have been so dissatisfied with the attitude which he has repeatedly taken up that I am more than 78 reluctant to put any undue discretion in his power. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken states that in this Bill it is clearly set forth what a dealer is expected to do and what he is expected not to do. He knows his responsibilities, and therefore if he makes a mistake or does wrong he must bear the penalty. I do not like to put a power in the hands of the Home Secretary which might or might not, either by himself or by his staff, be unfairly or injudiciously exercised. For that reason I support the Amendment which my hon. and gallant Friend has moved.

§ Sir J. BAIRD
The other side of the argument which has been advanced by the two hon. Members who proposed and seconded the Amendment is a very simple one. If these words are struck out of the Bill, then the Second Schedule in its present form can never be varied, however disagreeable and inconvenient it may prove to be in its working. It may very easily prove to be the fact that in order efficiently to carry out the intention of the Act, alteration may be necessary. It is quite possible that the time may come when the arms manufacturers or dealers, in consultation with the Secretary of State, may come to the conclusion that in the interests of all concerned this Second Schedule should be altered. If these words are not left in then this Second Schedule remains cast iron and permanent. There has been but little experience of this matter. Prior to the War there was no experience of it at all, and in the interests of those concerned in the trade, just as much as in the interests of the efficient working of the scheme of the Bill, I suggest it would be premature to try to lay down now, on the insufficient experience we have had in the working of the measure, a set of particulars such as you will find in the Second Schedule. Of course, if it is taken for granted that the Secretary of State would use his powers capriciously or vexatiously, legislation would become very difficult; but the intention with regard to this matter, as in all other matters, is that we should meet, so far as we possibly can, the views of those who are directly concerned. It is impossible for us to do so if these words are not left in the Schedule, and I hope, therefore, in view of the short experience we have had in dealing with this matter, the House will be content to leave in these 79 words, and to leave the Secretary of State with the power and opportunity to exercise his discretion, and to act, at any rate, upon any good suggestion which he may receive from those people who might conceivably find these Regulations unnecessary and vexatious. I am afraid we cannot accept the Amendment.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
The hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke for the Government said the Home Secretary is not going to make any vexatious Regulations. How can we know that? During the War the great complaint of traders, manufacturers, and merchants throughout the country was the vexatious and innumerable rules, Regulations, forms, and so on, which the War, I suppose, inevitably cast upon them, and which became almost an intolerable burden. This Second Schedule is very comprehensive. It seems to me to contain every possible information which it is fair and right to ask merchants and gunmakers and others to keep, and to provide the Government with. The bureaucrats have been so diligent in inventing new forms and other means of badgering and hampering traders in this country that I am not at all certain that this may not introduce some further vexatious details which the Government will insist upon from traders and merchants. All my hon. and gallant Friend asks for in this Amendment is to force the Department to come to the House for a short amending Bill, and if they come with a good cause I am quite sure the House would give them their Bill, as they have given them the main Bill. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will insist on his Amendment.