§ "At every court-martial held under this Act which involves a serious charge, or any question of special difficulty, there shall be appointed a fudge Advocate who shall be a fully qualified barrister or solicitor. A certificate of what is a serious charge or a question of special difficulty shall be furnished in every case by the Judge Advocate or some person nominated by him for the purpose."—[Major O'Neill.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Major O'NEILLI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
I merely raise this question owing to a recommendation of the Committee on Courts-martial, that there should be introduced into our system of discipline in the Army a number of officers who have special legal knowledge and who could deal with court-martial questions and legal questions which arise at the courts-martial in a way which the ordinary officer who has purely military knowledge could not possibly deal with them. During the war a large legal department, which one might almost call the Department of Law and Justice, was built up in the Army, and in that department were many officers, all of whom in civilian life were either barristers or solicitors. They did most excellent work in reviewing courts-martial, and sitting as Judge Advocates upon courts-martial. In every case where questions of difficulties were involved, one of the properly trained court-martial officers always sat as a member of the court in order to keep the court straight upon questions of law. The Committee on Courts-martial appointed last year made a recommendation that that system should be carried into the general system of the Army. They said: 1630
During the War a system was introduced of employing in connection with courts-martial special officers who were either barristers or solicitors and who were called court-martial officers. There appears to be a consensus of opinion amongst both witnesses and persons who have submitted suggestions that in some form or other this should be made permanent. We agree with this view.Further on they suggest that the tentative scheme submitted by the Judge Advocate-General should be further considered. Here again I would ask the War Office what is being done with regard to this very important recommendation which I hope will be carried out without delay.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONThere have been two Committees appointed. One has been appointed to consider the recommendation contained in paragraph 6 and 7 of Mr. Justice Darling's Committee's Report, which deals with the Court and the punishment, but there has also been a second Committee appointed by the Secretary of State, which has to work out in detail the recommendations in connection with the appointment of legal advisers and legal questions contained in paragraphs 8 and 16 of the Report to which the hon. and gallant Member has just referred. He will be very glad to see that in a footnote there is an instruction to the Committee to proceed as expeditiously as possible in the matter. I hope that with that assurance he will see his way to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Major O'NEILLIs it the intention of the War Office to carry out the principle of the recommendation?
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONThe Committee is now considering this very matter.
§ Major O'NEILLIf it is not the intention of the War Office to carry them out what is the use of appointing a Committee, when they have just appointed this Courts-martial Committee?
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONThe hon. Member need not be under any great apprehension. The words are, "to work out in detail."
§ Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and negatived.
1631| FIRST SCHEDULE. | |
| Accommodation to be provided. | Maximum Price. |
| Lodging and attendance for soldier where meals furnished | Tenpence per night. |
| Breakfast as specified in Part I. of the Second Schedule to the Army and Air Force Acts. | Tenpence each. |
| Dinner as so specified | Two shillings. |
| Supper as so specified | Sixpence. |
| Where no meals furnished, lodging and attendance, and candles, vinegar, salt, and the use of fire, and the necessary utensils for dressing and eating his meat. | Tenpence. |
| Stable room and ten pounds of oats, twelve pounds of hay, and eight pounds of straw per day for each horse. | Three shillings per day. |
| Stable room without forage | Sixpence per day. |
| Lodging and attendance for officer | Three shillings per night. |
§ Note.—An officer shall pay for his food.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to move, in paragraph beginning "lodging and attendance," to leave out the word "tenpence" and to insert instead thereof the words "one shilling."
This has reference to the allowance to householders on whom soldiers are billeted for lodging and attendance, when meals are provided. The substitution of one shilling for tenpence may not seem a large increase. Perhaps next year, if the Committee is generous, it may be increased to 2s., and it will be open to the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Mills) to move an Amendment to that effect. It may be objected that this will mean an extra tax on the Treasury, but it will relieve the actual taxpayer on whom the soldier is billeted. If soldiers are billeted on civilians we hope that they will be well looked after. A little extra money will always help towards that There are, of course, many people who would be only too pleased to look after soldiers in their houses without any payment at all. Hon. Members are inclined to treat this matter lightly, but it is not a small question when many thousands of soldiers are being billeted.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONThis is a part of the Bill in which I took a special personal interest. I found that the figures fixed for billeting, as remuneration for services rendered, were, in my view, too small. They were 6d. per night. Having gone into the matter very carefully with the financial experts of the Department, the figure was raised to 10d. per night. Taking the whole of the figures of the Schedule together, hon. Members will see that they add up to 3s. 4d., and 1632 adding up the actual cost of the services, based upon the Board of Trade Return for March, 1920, and including the increased price of bread which has just come into force, the actual cost to the civilian who supplies these services will be 3s. 3¾d., a margin on the right side of a farthing. No one individual, of course, renders all those services. I only instance this to show that we have gone into the matter very carefully, with a desire that the services should be remunerated reasonably. It is fair to assume that the people of this country are willing to render that patriotic service when necessary. It is equally only fair that the people should receive, at any rate not materially less than it costs them.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI do not think that the hon. Baronet has quite grasped the meaning of this Amendment. Later on I propose to ask the Committee to agree to increasing the price of meals, which the hon. Baronet has dealt with. This is a simple matter of lodging and attendance. I find that in the provinces the usual price charged to decent men for lodgings, without meals or anything else, is a shilling per night. Why should not a shilling be paid for the soldier?
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONI was taking the second item of breakfast. I did not know the Amendment applied to the first line of the Schedule.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI am glad I rose again. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment and give for the soldier the same amount as is given by the civilian 1633 to the ordinary professional lodging-house keeper. This is not based on price, but on service rendered.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONWhile it is quite true I was dealing with food supplies at the same time the remarks I made are equally applicable to the service. The matter was very careful considered with a view to doing justice and acting fairly. I went into it and spent a long time over it with the experts in my Department and I am satisfied that it is a fair remuneration for the service rendered.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to move in the paragraph beginning "Breakfast as specified" to leave out the word "tenpence" and to insert instead thereof the words "eighteen pence."
The sum allowed for breakfast is tenpence. I have consulted great experts myself, not in this House, and I am told that not much of a breakfast can be provided for tenpence. I think eighteen pence is the lowest amount which should be paid for a breakfast at present. The Englishman has always gone in for a substantial breakfast unlike the foreigner who starts his day on coffee and rolls. Our greatness is attributed by some people to the fact that we insist on a good breakfast before we set out on the day's adventures. Next year, when the Bill comes forward, if prices have gone down, we can revert to the lower figure. I do not want to put too great a charge on the Exchequer, but I do not want humble people to be compelled to pay extra money in order to see that the lads billeted on them get decent food. I think the figure I suggest is very reasonable.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONI am rather surprised that the hon. and gallant Gentleman who poses here, and I have no doubt in his constituency, as an economist, should recommend that a breakfast which we have ascertained costs 10⅛d. should be paid for by the Government at the rate of 1s. 6d., or, in other words, that the taxpayer should be asked to pay 8d. over the cost of the breakfast. The breakfast as specified in the Army and Air Force Acts consists of 6 ozs. of bread, 4 ozs. of bacon, tea with milk and sugar, one pint. The cost, worked out on the 1634 basis I have stated, is the exact, accurate fractional cost of 10⅛d., and consequently I cannot accept the Amendment.
Mr. T. WILSONI think the right hon. Gentleman has given away his case absolutely. He says that one of the items for breakfast is 4 ozs. of bacon. I am informed by my wife that bacon is now four shillings per pound, so there is a shilling gone.
§ Mr. INSKIPThat is the best bacon.
Mr. WILSONAm I to understand that the best is not good enough for a soldier? I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, as representing the War Office, to increase the tenpence. I do so for a reason which I think will appeal to his economical mind. Very few soldiers are now billeted upon the people. That being so, surely he and the War Office are not prepared to ask the taxpayers of the country to billet soldiers and provide them with food at less than cost price. I do appeal to him to give the matter further consideration. If he does, I am certain that he will do something to make the Army more popular than it is at the present time. I hope, at any rate, if he cannot do it now, that he will consult with the Secretary of State for War and that on the Report stage he will be able to make an increase for the breakfast of the soldier.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to move, in the paragraph beginning "Supper as so specified", to leave out the word "sixpence" and to insert instead thereof the words "one shilling".
The pre-war supper consisted of bread and cheese, but the standard of living laid down for the soldier before the War was too low. The pay of the soldier now, taking into account his allowances and special privileges, practically approximates to that of the ordinary workman in civil life. Therefore, the soldier's standard of living, taking into consideration the difficulties of Army life, should also approximate to the standard of living of the workmen in civil life. Otherwise, you will not get the best type of man into the Army. I do not think that a substantial supper after a hard day's work can be provided for the British soldier for sixpence. Therefore, I propose to make it one shilling. I am twitted by the right hon. 1635 Baronet for being an economist. If I am, I am very proud of it, but it is a question upon what you economise, and this is a matter in which I do not propose to economise. While we have soldiers and sailors, I think that they should be properly looked after, and I do not see that we should economise at the expense of the worthy and patriotic people upon whom the soldiers are billeted. Some people will give the soldier the bare scale laid down and try to make on it. Other kindly, patriotic persons will wish to make him as comfortable as possible and will give him a little over and above the scale laid down. Do hon. Members suggest economising at the expense of these people who are probably in humble circumstances? That is not the economy that I am prepared to advocate or that I was sent to this House to preach.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONI am afraid the hon. and gallant Member's economy is running riot, because he has now indulged in a further proposal in the direction of extravagance by urging that the payment for suppers should be 1s. instead of 6d. On the basis I have already given the Committee, the actual and exact cost of the supper is 5⅛d., so that even on the 6d. in the Bill there is a slight margin on the right side. I cannot produce. I stronger argument against the proposal of the hon. and gallant Gentleman than that we are here as trustees of the public purse, and we are not at liberty to distribute largesse or payment for services rendered beyond that which they are entitled to receive and that which the cost of the service really is.
Dr. MURRAYI should like my right hon. Friend to submit those figures to the Kitchen Committee, who must be profiteering according to the figures he has given us, and I should also like to know what fund their profits are going to, because they must be tremendous. I should like also to know if the right hon. Gentleman will give these figures to a Committee and have them compared with the ordinary charges in restaurants and hotels.
Major BARNESWhat is the amount which is estimated as likely to be spent in the present year upon billeting, in order that we might have some idea as to what my hon. and gallant Friend's 1636 proposal amounts to? The right hon. Gentleman talked about scattering largesse as if we were throwing away millions of pounds over this. If the scale is inadequate it will press hardly, first of all on the soldier, and then on the poorer class of the community, because the soldiers are likely to be billeted on people who are not very well able to bear the expense.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONI am afraid I cannot give any figure of the estimated cost of billeting for the year, because I do not think any estimate exists. I do not think it would be correct to say that the people on whom the soldier is billeted are going to suffer, or that they are the poorest in the community; a lot of them keep inns and hotels. Further, this applies, not to times of emergency, but we are dealing here with route marches, and these are not very numerous, so that I daresay it is true that the whole amount of payment during the year for billeting will not be very much. That also cuts at the argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Hull, but the cost to the community will be great owing to under-payment. At any rate, the object I had in view in fixing these figures with the advisers at the War Office was to do justice and to see that a fair and reasonable payment was made. I assured myself, after going into the question exhaustively, that these figures are fair.
§ Mr. HOGGEMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman if, as a matter of information, he will circulate, for the benefit of Members of the House, the names and addresses of innkeepers who will give us bed, breakfast, dinner and supper for 4s. 2d.?
§ Mr. MYERSMy opinion is that everyone of these items, apart from the bottom one, ought to be challenged in the Division lobby. It is the most scandalous piece of sweating I have ever experienced in this House. The cost of bread, bacon, milk and sugar, the first essentials of the meals provided for our soldiers, is rising, and it is impossible to do justice to the men and keep near the figures specified in this Schedule. I hope we shall persist in challenging each one of these items—apart from the last one of the Schedule, which may be considered fairly reasonble—in the Division lobby, if necessary.
§ Question put, "That the word 'sixpence' stand part of the Schedule."
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to move in paragraph beginning "Where no meals furnished" to leave out the word "tenpence" and to insert instead thereof the words "one shilling and sixpence"
The paragraph provides that
Where no meals furnished, lodging and attendance, and candles, vinegar, salt and the use of fire, and the necessary utensils for dressing and eating his meatthe price shall be tenpence. Therefore the magnificent sum which the Government suggest for this service is tenpence. In view of the figures of the last Division, which must have caused the Chief Government Whip some anxiety, I think the hon. Baronet might meet us on this point. Very few soldiers are now being billeted, and it would not cost much, although it
§ The Committee Divided: Ayes, 83; Noes, 45.
1637| Division No. 82.] | AYES. | [10.47 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. | Purchase, H. G. |
| Ainsworth, Captain Charles | Inskip, Thomas Walker H. | Rankin, Captain James S. |
| Archdale, Edward Mervyn | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Remer, J. R. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Jameson, J. Gordon | Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Johnson, L. S. | Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stratford) |
| Bell, Lieut.-Col W C. H. (Devizes) | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Rodger, A. K. |
| Birchall, Major J. Dearman | Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Breese, Major Charles E. | King, Commander Henry Douglas | Royden, Sir Thomas |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Lister, Sir R. Ashton | Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. |
| Bruton, Sir James | Lloyd, George Butler | Seager, Sir William |
| Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin | Loseby, Captain C. E. | Seddon, J. A. |
| Chadwick, R. Burton | McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) | Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. | Stanier, Captain Sir Beville |
| Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale | Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) | Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. G. F. |
| Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South) | Martin, Captain A. E. | Sturrock, J. Long |
| Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) | Molson, Major John Elsdale | Sutherland, Sir William |
| Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. | Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. | Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) |
| Gange, E. Stanley | Morison, Thomas Brash | Tryon, Major George Clement |
| Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | Waddington, R. |
| Goff, Sir R. Park | Meal, Arthur | Waring, Major Walter |
| Gregory, Holman | O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. | Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) |
| Hailwood, Augustine | Parker, James | Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald |
| Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) | Perkins, Walter Frank | Yea, Sir Alfred William |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Perring, William George | |
| Hood, Joseph | Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) | Pollock, Sir Ernest M. | Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward. |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Prescott, Major W. H. |
| NOES. | ||
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Irving, Dan | Simm, M. T. |
| Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Jephcott, A. R. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Cairns, John | Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N.) | Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) |
| Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Stanton, Charles B. |
| Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Swan, J. E. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Mallalieu, F. W. | Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) |
| Entwistle, Major C. F. | Malone, Colonel C. L. (Leyton, E.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Finney, Samuel | Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross) | Wallace, J. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Myers, Thomas | Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Waterson, A. E. |
| Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) | O'Connor, Thomas P. | Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Hancock, John George | O'Grady, Captain James | Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) |
| Hayday, Arthur | Rae, H. Norman | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Hirst, G. H. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | |
| Hogge, James Myles | Sexton, James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Holmes, J. Stanley | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and Major Barnes. |
§ would mean a great deal to the people who may have soldiers billeted on them. Probably Board of Trade figures will be produced to show that all these services can be done for tenpence, but it is not sufficiently remunerative.
Lieut.-Colonel MALONEI think this particular item is the most iniquitous in the list. Just consider what tenpence means. The lowest sum at which lodgings can be furnished is one shilling, so that there will be a loss of twopence on every soldier billeted. Let us consider the items in regard to which expense is entailed. I assume that soldiers, like other people, are entitled to sheets. Now, the standard price—
§ The CHAIRMANWe have passed that point, and are now dealing with the pro-vision of meals.
Lieut.-Colonel MALONEIt says, "Where no meals furnished." At any rate, there is a loss of twopence a night entailed on the people who have to put up these soldiers in their cottages, because the lowest sum for which lodgings can be obtained is a shilling. It is impossible to provide candles, vinegar, salt and all the other amenities which domestic life entails, for tenpence. What actually happens is that these soldiers who are billeted, in order to lead a decent life, have to pay out of their own pocket and for these reasons I shall support my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment.
§ 11.0 P.M.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONI am afraid that the hon. and gallant Members for Hull and East Leyton are not very grateful to me for the action I have taken. I found that the remuneration for these services was 6d., and the proposal is to raise it to 10d., but now the hon. and gallant Members say it is not enough, and that we must spend a little more of the ratepayers' money. Tenpence, I think, is a not unreasonable amount. It may be, and very probably is, that it cannot be done for 10d., but the billeting of the troops of His Majesty is a patriotic service which most people are not unwilling to render. I have had soldiers billeted at my own house. I think the payment is reasonable, and I therefore cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. HAYDAYI hope the right hon. Baronet will reconsider his decision. It is not so much the service; there are, of course, accidents—there are breakages.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONBreakages are paid for.
§ Mr. HAYDAYIt is no use saying it is a patriotic service. The people who are called upon to billet these soldiers are among the poorest persons, and they cannot do it without the greatest sacrifice to themselves. The soldiers in the main are billeted upon poor persons.
§ The CHAIRMANI am not sure whether the hon. Member is not under a misapprehension. This particular provision applies to the keeper of a victualling house only.
§ Mr. HAYDAYI thought it referred to general billeting, and if that is the case it is not right to say that 10d. is a sufficient sum. It is not sufficient indeed 1640 whether for licensed victualling places or for ordinary private households.
§ Sir A. WILLIAMSONThere certainly is some misapprehension in the minds of some hon. Members. During a state of war or a state of emergency it is recognised by the Kings Proclamation that every one is liable to have soldiers billeted upon them. All classes are liable. But here we are dealing with ordinary billeting in times of peace, and it is confined to those who are described as victuallers.
§ Mr. SWANIs the system not unfair to the soldiers themselves? The offer of 10d. is inadequate—bound to put the soldier in a most humiliating position. Does it not make a man feel that he is dependent on charity if the householder is not given sufficient remuneration? I hope the right hon. Baronet will meet the request of my hon. and gallant Friend and increase the amount.
§ Question, "That the word 'tenpence' stand part of the Schedule ", put, and agreed to.
§ Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Schedules and Preamble agreed to.
§ Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time To-morrow.