§ 26. Sir J. BUTCHERasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the number of murders and attempted murders of soldiers and members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police which have occurred in Ireland during the past year; and whether these outrages or the perpetrators of them have been denounced by any of the Sinn Fein leaders?
§ Mr. MACPHERSONI will send my hon. and learned Friend a copy of a list giving this information up to the 11th October. I am bringing this list up to date, and if my hon. and learned Friend will put down a question next week I will give him a complete answer. With regard to the last part of the question I have seen no denunciation of these dastardly outrages by a single Sinn Fein political leader.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether he thinks he has suppressed the Sinn Fein organisation, and whether he has all the Sinn Fein Members of Parliament in gaol; if so, how are they to denounce these outrages?
§ Mr. MOLESWould the right hon. Gentleman also tell why, if Sinn Fein has been suppressed, the crimes are still being carried on?
§ Mr. MacVEAGHBut Sinn Feiners could not do them!
§ Mr. MACPHERSONI am glad to see that the hon. Gentleman is an advocate of Sinn Fein!
§ Mr. MacVEAGHDon't be impertinent!
§ Mr. MacVEAGHYou are given too much to that altogether.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI cannot allow that expression, which doubtless escaped from the hon. Member. It is not Parliamentary.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHMay I draw your attention, Sir, to the most insolent remark made by the Chief Secretary which had nothing whatever to do with the question on the Paper—most insolent! [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Gentleman's observation is one we are not accustomed to hear in this House. I hope he will see his way to withdraw it.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHMay I ask you whether, if an abusive epithet were applied by a Minister of the Crown to a Member, you would call that Minister to order?
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf the word "impertinent" were employed?
§ Mr. MacVEAGHNo, Sir; but the Chief Secretary is getting into a habit of replying that is characteristic of him. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] He interjected this observation: "I am glad to see that the hon. Member is an advocate of Sinn Fein." I ask you whether that does not call for rebuke?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI do not think there is anything unparliamentary in that expression. What I take exception to is the hon. Member's remark that the statement of the Irish Secretary was an impertient one. That I shall always take exception to.
§ Mr. T. P. O'CONNOROn a point of Order. May I respectfully call your attention to the fact that in immediate contiguity to the suggestion that Sinn Feiners are responsible for many of the acts of violence and assassination in Ireland, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary followed by the statement that my hon. Friend was practically a Sinn Feiner, thereby suggesting—[HON, MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—that my hon. Friend was in some way or another, near or remote, associated with a body which the right hon. Gentleman charged with fomenting assassination. I am sure that observation did not reach you at the moment, or catch your attention, or—if I may respectfully say so—you would have called the Minister to order.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHPractise a little fair play!
§ Mr. O'CONNORThe right hon. Gentleman, if I may respectfully put it to you, was making a suggestion which was most offensive and most uncalled for.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI cannot say as to that. There are a number of Sinn Feiners amongst the Members of this House. Whether hon. Members act with them or not is a matter for everyone's own judgment. I do not take any exception to that; it is not my business. What I take exception to is that an hon. Member should say that an observation made by a Minister of the Crown is an impertinent one. That is not a Parliamentary expression, and I ask the hon. Member to withdraw it.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHI think you know perfectly well, Mr. Speaker, without any assurance from me, that there is no person in this House who has a higher respect for you, or is more anxious to bow to your ruling. In view, however, of the habitually offensive character of the interjections of the Chief Secretary for Ireland— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—in this House, I very much regret that I cannot see my way to withdraw it.
§ Mr. SPEAKERUnder these circumstances, I must ask the hon. Member to withdraw from the House.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHI am quite prepared to do so, Mr. Speaker. I am convinced that before many months have passed the whole House will have the same opinion, of the Chief Secretary as I have to-day.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIt is not a question of the Chief Secretary. It is a question of whether or not the hon. Member will withdraw a statement which I say is un-parliamentary.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHI should have withdrawn it with reference to anybody in the House except the Chief Secretary.
§ Mr. SPEAKERthereupon, pursuant to Standing Order No. 20 relating to disorderly conduct, ordered Mr. MacVeagh to withdraw immediately from the House during the remainder of this day's Sitting.
§ The hon. Member withdrew accordingly.