CLAUSE 3. (Procedure of Industrial Court and on Arbitrations.) (Hansard, 10 November 1919)

Mr. HENDERSON
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words and those rules may, amongst other things, provide for references in certain cases to a single member of the Court and may apply, with any necessary modifications, any of the provisions of the Arbitration Act, 1889, and provide for enabling the Court to sit in two or more divisions, and to sit with assessors, for enabling the Court or any division of the Court to act notwithstanding any vacancy in their number. The object of this and one or two other Amendments following is to take out of this Clause all reference to the Arbitration Act, 1889. As I understand the position, the right hon. Gentleman has partly met our objection. I am not sure that he has fully met it, but, if he has, then I will not take the matter further. We want the first Sub-section of Clause 3 to read: The Minister may make, or authorise the Industrial Court to make, rules regulating the procedure of that Court, and for enabling questions as to the interpretation of any award to be settled without any fresh report or reference. That would take out everything connected with the Act of 1889. Our reason for desiring to do so is that, so far as we know, this is the first time that an attempt has been made to apply this Act to industrial questions. We do not know of any case where it has been done before. In most cases during the time that I have been in the House we said that the Act shall not apply. We believe that the effect of applying the Act would be to subject such cases being dealt with in a Civil Court. That is the last thing that we want, and I think possibly that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman has the same inten- 168 tion as my own. If so, we need not press the matter further, but in order to ascertain, I beg to move.

§ Sir R. HORNE
My right hon. Friend has quite correctly interpreted my intention. The effect of the Amendment which I have is to take out all reference to the Arbitration Act except in Sub-section (3), which reads, Subject as hereinbefore provided the Arbitration Act, 1889, shall not apply to any reference to the Industrial Court or to any reference to arbitration under this Act. Therefore, the effect of my Amendment would be to cut it out altogether. My right hon. Friend's Amendment would cut out more words than are necessary. Some of them, undoubtedly, should remain, because they are necessary for the purpose which I have already explained. The words to which I refer are, and provide for enabling the Court to sit in two or more divisions and to sit with, assessors. My right hon. Friend agrees that is part of the scheme. The Amendment which I have would cut out all reference to the Arbitration Act except words negativing its use in connection with these processes.

§ Mr. CLYNES
I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (2).
Nothing that the right hon. Gentleman has said so far has shown that he proposes to take out of Sub-section (2) all reference to the provisions of the Act of 1889. If that be so, I would like to put a point with respect to the other part of the Sub-section which refers to the rules which are to be framed regulating the procedure to be followed in these various cases. A great deal depends upon these Rules. I have no doubt that the Rules in such a Court will have to be the result to a great extent of experience, but they will be read by the trade unions in conjunction with the Act itself, and it is advisable that we should let them know clearly what are the intentions and should be able to let them see that there is nothing up the right hon. Gentleman's sleeve. I should, therefore, be obliged to him to give us an outline as to what these-Rules are likely to be.

§ Sir R. HORNE
I propose to leave out the words, "and those Rules may apply with any necessary modifications any of the provisions of the Arbitration Act, 1889," and to let the preceding words stand. My right hon. Friend may take it that these Rules will not involve anything more than the ordinary routine Rules of procedure. They will embrace nothing which can have any sort of legal compulsion as against people outside the Court. All that is intended is that the Court should be carried on in a regular fashion according to general principles such as must be observed in any Court if it is to gain the confidence of anybody. This same power has been taken in every case that I have ever known of any Arbitration Court or of any body dealing in a judicial capacity with any matter coming before it. My right hon. Friend may take it that these Rules will be entirely innocuous from his point of view, and will only relate to the regularised procedure.

Major GREAME
I hope that in the case of Regulations made under this Bill the right hon. Gentleman and his Department will take the opportunity of consulting representatives of both employers' and employed organisations, because, although there may be nothing much, in the Rules, both sides would like to know exactly what they are and how they are affected by them. I think, therefore, if the right hon. Gentleman will give an undertaking that that practice will be followed it will give much satisfaction.

§ Sir R. HORNE
I shall be very glad to follow the course suggested by my hon. Friend.