NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1917–18. (Hansard, 6 November 1919)

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
Now that our finance is, I hope, beginning to emerge from the welter and chaos of the War into something approaching the normal, will my right hon. Friend tell me whether this Resolution is the ordinary debit and credit or is there anything unusual in it?

§ Mr. BALDWIN
I was going to explain what this Resolution means, because there are many new Members, and this is a form that is by far the most puzzling of any of the forms which are ever presented in the House of Commons. This really is merely giving the sanction of Parliament to what has already been done by Parliament in another form. All these figures which appear in the Committee on Navy and Army expenditure standing against my name are printed in the Appropriation Accounts of the Army and Navy for the year 1917–18, which were printed by Order of the House of Commons on 3rd March last. The accounts in this Appropriation Account have been up during the course of this summer before the Public Accounts Committee. They have been considered together with the Comptroller and Auditor-General's Report, which is bound up with these accounts, by the Public Accounts Committee, and passed, and all that we are asked to do to-night is to approve of what they have done. Three things are involved in this sanction. We give formal statutory sanction to the charging, as it occurs this year, and as it has occurred during the War of the deficit against the Vote of Credit. We also give Parliamentary sanction to the excess Vote which was passed in the earlier part of the year, and thirdly, it sanctions the transfer of money from one Vote to another on the Army 1804 and Navy Votes. The last Consolidated Fund Bill of the year is the Appropriation Bill. We shall be having an Appropriation Act before we adjourn for Christmas. There are two Clauses always in the Appropriation Act, one of which gives the Navy and the Army permission in their next accounts to utilise moneys voted on the Vote for the pay of the men for any other Vote when required, provided it has Treasury sanction and does not exceed the total amount voted, and on the understanding, which is also specified, that final sanction will be given to the step which has been taken under the authority of that Appropriation Act in the Appropriation Act of the following year. It is a most complicated process and I do not wonder that anyone seeing these figures for the first time wonders what on earth they are all about But there is nothing in this that does not appear every year. I hope sanction will be given by the Committee to the proceedings of their own Public Accounts Committee. The Committee stage of this Resolution is being taken to-night, and has to be reported in the usual way. Anyone who desires to study the matter further can find a comprehensive explanation of it in Erskine May. These volumes which I hold in my hand can be seen in the Library at any time.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
Could the hon. Gentleman tell us what would be the effect if this Resolution were not passed?

An HON. MEMBER
The Government would resign℠

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
Apart from resignation, can the hon.
1805 Gentleman say what would happen if this is not passed, and what financial adjustments will be made from one Vote to another? We thank the hon. Member for his lucid explanation, but I would like this point cleared up.

§ Captain W. BENN
I know generally what is meant by this Resolution. It means that we vote a sum of money for one purpose and within certain limits it is devoted to another purpose, and subsequently approved by an Appropriation Act. During this post-war year has there been any extension of the limits within which that may be done? Has the House passed money, say, for the Army or the Navy, supposing it to be used or about to be used for stores, and has that same money been available for a foreign expedition?

§ Mr. BALDWIN
Certainly not. The hon. and gallant Member has been an officer of the Treasury and he must know that it is entirely a matter of convenience. He will remember that it is essential for the pay of the vital services to be provided for by a Vote at the beginning of the year, and it represents a very large sum. Of course, there arc many other things in the Army and Navy besides pay. There are stores and so forth that have to be purchased, and the practice has obtained for temporarily utilising the money from one Vote until the money is obtainable on the Estimates later.

§ Captain BENN
The hon. Member will understand why I asked the question. We vote money for Vote 1, which is for pay. It may be necessary to erect a building. There is nothing unreasonable in erecting a building, supposing it is needed badly, but some new scheme may be suggested by the War Office or some new expedition to which we may object, and we are put in a difficult position if the money which has been voted for one purpose is used for another and then it has to be approved afterwards by a Resolution of the House, such as this.

§ Mr. BALDWIN
I think that would be impossible. You have to keep within the amount which has been voted.

§ Captain BENN
I apologise for being so persistent, but I want my point made clear. Let me give an example of the sort of thing I have in mind. Take the Baltic expedition. Many of us object very 1806 strongly to the use of our ships in the Baltic. We may have voted money at the beginning of the Session for the pay of the Navy, on the understanding that it was going to be used for the purpose for which it was voted. Is that money able to be used for an expedition to the Baltic to which many of us object, and then are we to be faced afterwards with the accomplished fact, and to approve by a Resolution of this kind, the deed that has been done?

§ Mr. BALDWIN
No; that would clearly be impossible. I would remind my hon. Friend that if there was anything unusual in the utilisation of the money it would come up before the Public Accounts Committee, who would immediately report it to the House of Commons.

§ Lieut. Commander KENWORTHY
May I have an answer to my question?

§ Mr. BALDWIN
It was due to forgetfulness that I did not answer the lion, and gallant Member's question. I have not the remotest idea.
Question put, and agreed to. II. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st. day of March, 1918, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, namely:

(a) That the aggregate expenditure on Army Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services by a sum of £690,976,452 3s. 4d.;

(b) That the aggregate receipts in aid of Army Services fell short of the aggregate sums appropriated in aid of those Services by a sum of £34,841,417 16s. ld.;

(c) That the total differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:

	£	s.	d.
Surpluses	Nil
Deficit	227,371,881	7	1
Deficit (charged against the Vote of Credit)	£227,371,881	7	1

SCHEDULE.
Number of vote.	Navy Services, 1917–18. Votes.	Actual Receipts compared with Estimated Appropriations-in-Aid.
Surpluses.	Deficits.
							£	s.	d.	£	s.	d.
1	Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard,
	and Royal Marines	…	…	…	…	…	—			12,856,075	13	9
7	Royal Naval Reserves	…	…	…	…	…	—			90	6	11
2 to 6	Other Navy Votes	…	…	…	…	…	19,389,910	8	2	—
and	Add Surplus Appropriations-in-Aid not appropriated
8 to 15	by Parliament	…	…	…	…	…	—			10	0	0
							19,389,910	8	2	12,856,176	0	8
							£6,533,734 7 6

	£	s.	d.
Surpluses	Nil
Deficits	725,817,869	19	5
Deficit (charged against the Vote of Credit)	£725,817,869	19	5

SCHEDULE.
Number of Vote.	Army Services,1917–1. Votes.	Actual Receipts compared with Estimated Appropriations-in-Aid.
Surpluses	Deficits.
							£	s.	d.	£	s.	d.
1	Pay, etc., of the Army	…	…	…	…	…	—			66,902,919	15	6
3	Special Reserve	…	…	…	…	…	—			100	0	0
15	Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Gratuities	…	—			45	5	7
2 and 4	Other Army Votes	…	…	…	…	…	32,061,647	5	0	—
to 14.							32,061,647	5	0	66,903,065	1	1
							£34,841,417 16 1