MINISTRY OF HEALTH [SALARIES AND EXPENSES]. (Hansard, 6 March 1919)

§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON
I do not want in the least to obstruct the passage of this Resolution. I am just as keen as my hon. Friend that the Bill should go through upstairs as fast as possible, but I should be glad to have some information as to the way in which this money is going to be spent. Under Clause 6 of the Bill the Government apparently want to pay consultative councils certain sums for the duties which they carry out. I do not mind a bit out-of-pocket and travelling expenses being paid to the members of these councils, but I think that it would be very inadvisable to pay them anything outside of these rather narrow boundaries. If you do, you will create a suspicion in the 788 public mind that a great many paid jobs are being created. When the Insurance Act was being passed hundreds, I may say thousands, of approved society leaders gave advice gratis to the Minister in charge of that particular Department. The Advisory Committee in connection with the Insurance Act is also an unpaid body, and as the President of the Local Government Board is going to take over the whole of the functions of the Insurance Commission I do not see why he should not take over the services of that Advisory Committee which during the last four or five years has been doing good work for nothing. Under this Bill we shall have local health councils all over the country, and in every locality this local council will act as an advisory committee, and certainly in this case they will all be unpaid. Therefore I do not see why out of the local health councils you should not find central consultative councils who will be perfectly prepared to give their services gratis to the country. The council of the Association of Municipal Corporations are totally opposed to the payment of these consultative councils. My hon. Friend, in making this proposition, is weakening the authority of these councils, and they will not be able to do as good public work as otherwise they could do. In order to give my hon. Friend an opportunity of giving 789 us information on the subject, I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words, Provided that no such moneys shall be paid to members of consultative councils other than for travelling and out-of-pocket expenses.

§ Major MOLSON
I beg to second the Amendment. I feel very strongly on this matter of consultative councils doing the work without being paid. I think that they ought to receive out-of-pocket and travelling expenses only.

§ Major FARQUHARSON
There are one or two points which I would urge in support of this Amendment. There is, first, the uncertainty as to the amount of expenditure likely to be incurred. We do not know how many of these councils may be formed or what their personnel may be. It may be great or small, but in any case it may involve expenditure, and to what extent we are absolutely in the dark. The only way we can get some light on the matter is by limiting the scope of expenditure with regard to these councils. We recognise that it is desirable that gentlemen or ladies giving their time and services ought at all events to have their out-of-pocket expenses, and perhaps payment for the loss of remunerative time. There is another point. We are having now for the first time consultative or advisory councils established as statutory bodies. A great many committees have been called into existence by Ministers ad hoc. But here have definite statutory bodies being created. They will naturally have statutory authority. They will appoint a staff. If the staff are going to give any value in return for their money they will be asked to give definite advice. The Minister also will have his technical staff. What I am afraid of is that if you have a salaried staff under the advisory committees, and if you have a highly trained technical staff, you will expose the Minister to such a conflict of view that he will be placed in an invidious position. The creation of numerous statutory paid bodies will expose the Minister to difficulty, but if you limit the payment there can be no possibility of running after these places, whereas it is most natural that if you have men with large salaries they will wish to give the best return for them. For these reasons alone the House should be informed as to how much money is to be spent on these bodies.

§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Major Astor)
I must apologise for not being here the other evening when this point was raised. I regret that the President of the Local Government Board, unfortunately, is down with influenza, and cannot be present. The object of passing this Resolution is to incorporate this Clause in the Ministry of Health Bill. I hope that the House will pass the Resolution in order that the Committee which is going to amend the Ministry of Health Bill as a whole may be able to deal with the councils such as have been adumbrated. I think it is most desirable that the same body which helps the Minister to mould the Ministry of Health Bill should be able to deal with the proposals as a whole. The hon. Gentleman opposite said that he did not quite know how many of these consultative councils were going to be set up. I know that my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board wants in Committee upstairs to go into the greatest detail on all these points as to the number of the councils and the procedure of the bodies, so as to enable them to help the Minister. As at present advised, the idea is to give more than a mere travelling subsistence allowance. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Insurance Act. He probably knows that in 1913 an Amending Bill was passed whereby certain payments other than the subsistence and travelling allowance could be got. The members of the Scientific and Industrial Research Council, I understand, are paid a sort of honorarium which does not at all represent the value of the time which they give to the State. It is very nearly a nominal sum, and I believe that my right hon. Friend the President contemplates that in certain cases, or perhaps in all cases, this might be open to reconsideration. That is what he has in his mind at the present moment. I do not think it would be possible merely to limit this to travelling and subsistence allowances. In certain cases it would have to go further, and I suggest to the House that we could go into that in detail upstairs when amending the Bill as a whole. The hon. Member opposite referred to the use which has been made of these consultative councils and the assistance which they are to the Minister, but as I said the other day on the Second Reading, we have got to see also that Parliament is not deprived of its respon- 791 sibility. The Minister must still be responsible to Parliament. I have the greatest hope myself that these consultative councils will assist the Minister, but we must also take care to see that the responsibility of the Minister to Parliament is not weakened. All these points, I suggest, ought to be gone into in detail by Committee A which is going to amend the Bill upstairs. It is because of that that I appeal to my hon. Friend to withdraw the Amendment and let this Resolution go through now, and not to limit the discussion upstairs, as would be the case, if this Amendment were carried. I suggest that Committee, which is going to deal with the Bill as a whole, should be able to look at this particular proposition without the limitations which the Amendment would impose upon it. The Resolution after all only authorises the payment of such expenses as may become payable under any Act of the present Session to establish a Ministry of 792 Health, and I suggest that the Committee which deals with that Act is the proper body to go into details such as are suggested by my hon. Friend.

§ Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON
I should like to have had a little more information on the subject, but I believe my hon. Friend has given us all at his disposal at the moment, and I therefore beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.