MINISTRY OF HEALTH [SALARIES AND EXPENSES]. (Hansard, 4 March 1919)

§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON
Would it be in order for me, Mr. Whitley, to move to amend paragraph (3) dealing with payments to the Consultative Councils?

The CHAIRMAN
There is no paragraph (3) in this Resolution. The hon. Member is referring to the Bill. He can move his Amendment on the Bill, but not on this Resolution.

§ Major HILLS
Can we know whether this money is going for the payment of Consultative Councils or for the payment of secretaries and assistant-secretaries?

The CHAIRMAN
That question will be in order on the Bill. This Resolution will empower the Committee to consider that question, and it can be raised, too, on the Report of the Bill.

§ Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON
On a point of Order, Mr. Whitley. Will it be possible now to discuss the question as to whether these salaries should or should not be paid to the Consultative Councils? Cannot we discuss that question on this Resolution?

The CHAIRMAN
The matter can undoubtedly be discussed either on the Committee stage of the Bill or on the Report stage. This is merely a general Resolution which gives power to the Committee to consider that question.

§ Major HILLS
As the House is being asked to vote a sum of money for the pay- 352 ment of expenses, are we not entitled to know the persons who are to receive that money?

The CHAIRMAN
The hon. and gallant Member is entitled to ask, certainly, but I do not see how it can be answered because it depends upon what the Committee upstairs does.

§ Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON
On that, Mr. Whitley, I should rather like to know from the Government whether any of the money that we are asked to vote now is going to be paid to members of Consultative Councils? I gather from you that I would not be in order at the present moment in putting forward any argument to show that the members of Consultative Councils ought not to have any salaries made to them. If I were in order, I should very much like to have an answer from the Government, and to put forward certain reasons why I believe these salaries ought not to be paid to members of Consultative Councils.

§ Mr. BALDWIN
I think, perhaps, I may be able to put the matter in a way to satisfy my hon. Friends. The procedure of this House is, as they are aware, when a Bill is going to be introduced to make a charge on the Exchequer, that a Financial Resolution has to precede the Bill, and has to be passed in the House pro forma before the Bill can be printed. This Resolution fixes the amount payable to the Ministry of Health, and gives permission to incur other expenditure, but that expenditure is left entirely to the judgment of the House. That is the whole effect of this Resolution, and the point raised by the hon. Gentleman opposite is amply safeguarded. No one can tell except the Minister who is having the Bill drafted what the Bill will contain, and we all see the Bill for the first time when the Resolution has been reported to the House. When the Bill comes before a Committee of the House, the Minister may make what proposals he likes, and it rests with the House whether they adopt them or make any amendments they think worth while.

§ Major HILLS
The point is this: The Ministry of Health Bill provides for the setting up of certain Consultative Councils. The Committee is asked to vote something for the Ministry of Health, and I think we are entitled to know whether any of that money is to go for the payment of these Consultative Councils or not.

§ Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON
Surely the Government have printed their Bill, and it distinctly lays down that those members of the Consultative Council are going to be paid out of the Exchequer. Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether they are going to be paid out of the money we are asked now to vote? I think the Government must be able to tell us, because they have printed Clause 6, whether this money Resolution is for the purpose of paying members of the Consultative Councils.

§ Lieutenant-Colonel W. GUINNESS
I think the House as a whole ought to have some control in this matter. Unless we get the information to-night, the only authority to judge as to the way in which this money is to be spent will be a Committee upstairs. I do not think that that is a satisfactory way of dealing with finance, nor could it have been contemplated when our procedure was framed which laid down that all these forms of expenditure should be founded on a resolution passed in Committee of this House. I submit that it is a farce to pass a Resolution in Committee here unless we have some further indication of what the resolution means.

§ Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSON
Surely on an occasion of this sort the Minister in charge of the Bill ought to be present. I do not see how we can possibly expect to get this information unless the Minister is present.

§ Mr. BALDWIN
I quite recognise the force of the point which has been raised, but unfortunately both the Ministers concerned are ill. I will try and obtain this information from them, and bring up the Resolution again.

§ Sir EDGAR JONES
I do not think the hon. Member should have made that promise so hastily. We want to get on with this Bill, and we do not want to be blocked in this way. Unless we get this Resolution we cannot go on with the Bill.

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
Might I suggest if this Resolution be postponed that it does not prevent the Bill being gone on with. We all know these financial provisions are in italics in the Bill. A postponement will not prevent the progress of the Bill in the least degree. I understand the hon. Member in charge of this Resolution wishes to report Progress.

§ Mr. BALDWIN
Yes.