§ 3. Mr. LAMBERTasked the President of the Board of Trade what will be the estimated deficit on the working of the railways to be supplied by the taxpayers for the year ending 31st March, 1920, giving credit to the railways for the carriage of Government transport at Government rates; and when, and what, steps will be taken to make the railways self-supporting and not a burden on the public Exchequer?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANAs I have previously explained, I cannot at present say what the deficiency in the net receipts of the railways for the current year is likely to be. One of the objects of the Ministry of Ways and Communications Bill is to enable steps to be taken in the direction of making the railways self-supporting, but I cannot say when that Bill will be passed.
§ Mr. LAMBERTCan my hon. Friend say when he will be able to tell us what will be the estimated deficit?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI answered a question a few days ago, saying that we were trying to get an estimate, but we could not say that it was likely to be a very close one.
15. Major NEWMANasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the fact that the aggregate net receipts of the year 1913 is the total sum guaranteed to the owners of the railways by the Government, while dividends at the rate prevailing in the same year are not guaranteed to the shareholders, he will say how such dividends are to be paid in view of the estimated 583 extra cost of over one hundred millions, as compared with 1913, in running the systems under Government control?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANWhatever may be the cost of running the railways under Government control the railway companies receive from the Government their aggregate net receipts of 1913. It is for the boards of directors to arrange how the amounts received should be distributed to their shareholders.
Major NEWMANDoes that mean that there is no guarantee of any dividends at all for the shareholders?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANNo, it does not mean that. It is a guarantee of the net receipts of 1913, and no loss will make any difference to that. There will be the same amount to distribute as in 1913.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANThat remains to be seen.
§ Lord HUGH CECILWill there be an extra cost of £100,000,000 or any extra cost at all?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANThe figure that was given of £100,000,000 was the estimated increase in the working expenses. No estimate has been given yet of the probable receipts of next year.
§ Lord H. CECILCan an estimate be given now?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANAs I have already explained, we are trying to get an estimate, but we cannot say that it will be a very close one.
§ 64. Mr. MARRIOTTasked the Prime Minister whether, allowing for Government traffic, there was a profit to the State under the arrangement with the railways for the period of about four and a half years ending 31st December, 1918; whether he can supply approximate figures showing the results of actual working for the same railways for the first half of the current year; and whether, before the House enters upon the Report stage of the Ways and Communications Bill, he will lay before it a further estimate as to the probable financial results for the year ending 31st December, 1919?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI have been asked to answer this question. As my hon. Friend will see from the recent Return in 584 regard to railway working during the War, the estimated value of Government traffic during the period of control up to the end of 1918 exceeds the amount of compensation paid in respect of that period, but, as indicated in the Return, the cost of making good arrears of maintenance is uncertain, and there is a large contingent liability in respect of abnormal wear and tear. In these circumstances, I cannot say whether the result of railway working during the period referred to will ultimately involve a profit to the State or not. As regards the results of actual working during the first half of the current year, I cannot add to the reply given on this point to the hon. Member for Lincoln on the 26th June, and I fear that it is not possible to give an estimate as to the probable financial results for the year ending 31st December, 1919.
§ Mr. MARRIOTTMay I ask the Leader of the House if he will look at the last paragraph of the question and answer it?
§ Mr. BONAR LAW (Leader of the House)I am sure my hon. Friend will see I cannot give an answer to that without having looked into it.
§ Mr. MARRIOTTThe question was put down to the Prime Minister for the express purpose of eliciting that answer.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWBut it is a question about which I can have no knowledge except through the Board of Trade.
§ Lord H. CECILDoes my right hon. Friend think it reasonable that the House should be asked to take the Report stage of the Ways and Communications Bill lacking this very important information? It is treating the House with the greatest disrespect.
Sir F. HALLIf my hon. Friend tells us no figures have been kept, and they cannot say whether the railways would have resulted in a profit or otherwise, how can the Minister-designate state that there has been a loss of £90,000,000 per annum on the railways of the country?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI did not say that. I said the cost of making good arrears of maintenance was uncertain, and has not yet been ascertained.
§ Lord H. CECILWhy has it not been ascertained?
Sir F. HALLWill my hon. Friend reply plainly to the first part of the question of my hon. Friend (Mr. Marriott)?
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONIs it not a fact that the financial White Paper on this Bill is in such a condensed form that it is practically incomprehensible to anyone who studies it without technical knowledge of the question, and does he not think it unfair that this House should be asked to plunge into the Debate tomorrow without the necessary information?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI never myself found that condensation prevented comprehension. In any case this is not the first statement. Whatever information of that kind was required would be given in Committee.
§ Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSIt was asked for time and again in Committee, and we could not get it. Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that some Minister will come who can really give this information to-morrow?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWMost certainly, if it is information in the possession of the Board of Trade I see no reason whatever why it should not be given, and if my hon. Friend will let me know clearly this afternoon what the information exactly is which is wanted, I shall try to have it given by the Minister to-morrow.
Lieut.-Colonel THORNEIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that, whatever information is obtained, there is organised opposition to the Bill?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI think that is very probable, but even organised opposition has a right to be dealt with, and is very apt to disappear when the facts are given.