SUPPLY. (Hansard, 31 July 1919)

HC Deb 31 July 1919 vol 118 cc2321-6 2321

§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Navy Excess Vote, 1917–18, and all outstanding Votes in the Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates and Supplementary Estimates, 1919–20, except Class 2, Votes 17 and 33, and Class 7, Votes 3, 4, 5, and 10, be considered in Committee of Supply; that on this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Older No.15, the Navy Excess Vote, 1917–18, and Supplementary Estimates for New Services may be considered in Committee of Supply; that no Question be put upon Navy Estimates, 1919–20, Vote 1; that the Question necessary to dispose of any outstanding unclassified Votes in the Civil Services Estimates and Supplementary Estimates be put as if those Votes constituted together a class of those Estimates; and that Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the clock."— [Mr. Bonar Law.]

§ Sir DONALD MACLEAN
I wish to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, who, I understand, is going to reply, one or two questions as regards this Motion. It may save time if I put them now rather than afterwards. I understand that at ten o'clock to-night the Chairman will, under Standing Order 15, put the Question, so that after that hour we shall have no opportunity of raising any questions in regard to these Votes in Supply. Would my hon. Friend tell the House what Votes are included in Class 2, Votes 17 and 33? I understand that Vote 33 is Scottish Estimates," which are to stand over till Monday. Vote 17 is for the English Local Government Board. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will explain why it is brought in here. That also applies to Class 7, Votes 3, 4, and 5, which are also for the English Local Government Board, National Health Insurance, and matters of that kind. Will he also tell me whether I am right in assuming that it is the intention that no Question is to be put upon Navy Estimates, 1919–20, Vote 1, and that that is in order to give the opportunity for these Estimates to be submitted in the autumn, so that they can be fully considered, as was arranged, I think, the other day? I notice also a reference to Supplementary Estimates for New Services. I do not know what is covered exactly by that. Probably this is the only opportunity one will have of asking any questions upon that. Do those Estimates 2322 cover the Vote which was the subject of considerable discussion upstairs in regard to the alterations in the House of Lords to the residence of the Lord Chancellor? I am not quite clear on that point.

§ 4.0 P.M.

§ Mr. BALDWIN (Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury)
I am vary glad to have the opportunity of replying to my right hon. Friend, because, although this Motion is in common form at this time of the year, it is in common form with a few variations that make it specially applicable to the circumstances in which we are doing our work. The reason for the exemption of the Votes to which my right hon. Friend alluded is this: Ho will recognise, if he looks them up, that they are all Votes which are closely connected with the services of the old Local Government Board. The Local Government Board Estimate has not been passed. It was debated, but Progress was reported, and the Vote was not taken, because it was understood—and I think a statement to that effect was made—that the Ministry of Health would supersede it, and that the Estimates would be merged to this extent, that the Vote on Account was expected to carry on the Local Government Board for its existing lifetime. There are some surrenders, full details of which are given in the Appendix to the Ministry of Health Vote, which is included in the Supplementary Estimates. Each of those Estimates is connected with the Ministry of Health, either of England or Scotland, and such Votes as the National Health Insurance Commission, which are practically Ministry of Health Votes, are included. That sums up the whole of those Votes. With regard to the point the right hon. Gentleman put about the Navy Estimates, he has put the correct reading upon it. If the question were put on Vote 1, when the total Estimates are. to be introduced in the autumn, it would be impossible to have a discussion on that Vote, which is the most important one, and therefore we do not take any account of that to-night. I may say as regards the grouping together of unclassified services in one Vote, I do not press that. That is put in simply for the convenience of the House, because, under the guillotine, if the House think fit, they will divide against one class, which will take very much less time than if they divide against every individual Vote in the class. If the House feels strongly on 2323 that point, we will not press it. With regard to the Lord Chancellor's bath, my right hon. Friend will remember the position that in Standing Committee C, on one of the first days of the Session, the Vote was reduced by £4,800, if my memory serves me, which represents the total sum allocated for the improvement of the residence. When that Estimate was thrown out by the Committee upstairs they were warned that a certain amount of this money had already been spent, because it is obvious to the House that, in a case like that, where there was no expectation of a Vote being rejected, the Office of Works, under the sanction of the Treasury, followed the usual course of proceeding with the work in full expectation of receiving later that sanction. Therefore, we have to come to the House to sanction the actual expenditure before that date under those circumstances. The amount is included in these Estimates. It is a little over £2,000—again I speak from memory. My right hon. Friend alluded to there being some new services. The new services under the Supplementary Estimates are marked. It is always regrettable when these Votes have to be brought under the guillotine, but we have done it before, and I remember very well, I think it was in 1912, several new services were brought in in this way, and Lord Crawford, who was then Chief Whip, objected and we divided; but there the matter ended. The House will remember in the statement I made accompanying the introduction of the Civil Service Estimates this year, I pointed out that in the circumstances this year, from the nature of things, there was bound to be a much larger number of Supplementary Estimates than usual, and it is equally owing to the circumstances of the case that a number of these Supplementary Estimates have been obliged to be brought in at the last moment.

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
What are the new services?

§ Mr. BALDWIN
I have not got them in my head, but they are all marked "New Services" where they are in the Estimates. There is nothing of any importance except one Vote, on which I want to say a few words. When reviewing these Estimates. I told the Committee that the House would probably desire a discussion on the last Vote of the Estimates—"Unclassified Services Miscellaneous War 2324 Services (Foreign Office)"—and I saw my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for State, whose sanction I obtained for postponing this Vote until the autumn, so that it might be discussed in this House. With a view to achieving that result, I have had that one particular Vote put down immediately before the Ministry of Pensions Vote, and I propose, with the leave of the House when it is called, to move that it be withdrawn.

§ Colonel ASHLEY
Do I understand from my hon. Friend's statement that, if this procedure be carried out, the House will have no opportunity of discussing the £2,000 which has already been spent on the residence?

§ Mr. BALDWIN
The House will have no opportunity of rejecting the Vote unless they are able to defeat it by challenging a Division when it comes up under the guillotine. If my hon. and gallant Friend wishes to discuss the matter, I always understood you could discuss anything on the Consolidated Fund Bill.

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
It is possible that this is the only opportunity that is likely to arise, to-day at any rate. Would it be in order to have the particulars with regard to this question of the alteration of the Lord Chancellor's residence now on this Motion before the House so that Members could make any comments they wished in regard to it?

§ Mr. SPEAKER
This Motion is only as to the order of business. When the business conies on will be the opportunity.

Sir H. DALZIEL
With reference to the statement as to the reduced expenditure regarding the Lord Chancellor's residence, I should like to ask, for the information of the House, whether it is not the case that the Lord Chancellor has intimated, in view of the decision of the Committee, that he has no intention of occupying the apartments?

§ Mr. BALDWIN
Yes, Sir, that is the case. The whole scheme is at an end. The whole work was immediately stopped when the decision of the Committee was taken, and the amount in the Estimate is the amount that was spent up to that date.

§ Mr. MARRIOTT
I am not very clear about what my hon. Friend said as to the Unclassified Services. Are we to under- 2325 stand that any one of these services may be taken by itself by a vote of the House? For example, among the Unclassified Services is a Vote of a very considerable sum—I think £40,000,000—for the bread subsidy, and I want to know whether it would be competent for the House to take a vote on that, apart from the other unclassified Votes?

§ Mr. BALDWIN
As the Motion stands now—no; but I said to the House a few minutes ago that if it be the wish of the House to take the Votes separately, it is for them to decide. We are simply putting these Votes for Unclassified Services together to save time and trouble to the House; but I might remind my hon. Friend that the Vote on the bread subsidy was sent up by request more than once to the Committee upstairs, and it was not proceeded with.

An HON. MEMBER
The proceedings there were a farce.

§ Mr. MARRIOTT
In reference to the remark which has just fallen from my hon. Friend and the reproach which he apparently levelled at some Members of the House, may I remind him that not all the Members of the House were members of the Committee to which he referred? The House as a whole has had no opportunity whatever of considering or discussing that Vote. That is one of the inconveniences attaching to the system which has been set up this Session. Those of us who are not members of the Committee can have no responsibility for not forming a quorum at that Committee.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
That is not a matter for discussion now. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to move an Amendment now?

§ Mr. MARRIOTT
Not if I understand these Votes are to be put separately from the Chair.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
If the hon. Gentleman will look at the Motion on the Paper, he will see that the proposal is that they shall be put together. If he objects to that being done, the simple way is to move to leave out the words which provide for that.

§ Mr. HOGGE
It is preferable to have each Vote put from the Chair?

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§ Mr. BONAR LAW
I am not sure that, it is practicable, but would it not be possible, by general agreement, if only this Vote is to be taken separately, to have it put separately?

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
I beg to move to leave out the words that the Question necessary to dispose of any outstanding unclassified Votes in the Civil Services Estimates and Supplementary Estimates be put as if those Votes constituted together a class of those Estimates.

§ Captain W. BENN
We are discussing a Motion relating to the business of the House, and it appears from my hon. Friend opposite that here is a bread subsidy, which could not be discussed in the Standing Committee, and is now going to be put under the guillotine of the House of Commons. Does the Leader of the House think the Standing Committee system is a success?

§ Mr. BONAR LAW
I do not think it follows in the least from this that it is not a success. I have never seen a system of Parliament where the same sort of complaint was not made of things equally important passing without discussion.

§ Amendment agreed to.

§ Question proposed, "That the Resolution, as amended, be the Resolution of the House."

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
I should like to ask one question. The Navy Vote is going to be taken in the autumn. Will the Leader of the House give us a promise that the Army Estimates will be resubmitted in the autumn?

§ Mr. BONAR LAW
I think I can give that assurance, for it is quite obvious that must be taken some time.

§ Question put, and agreed to.