NEW CLAUSE.—(Control of Supplies of Building Materials.) (Hansard, 25 July 1919)

§ Mr. W. GRAHAM

I beg to move, That the Clause be read a second time. At the outset, I desire to be permitted to say that we have purposely confined our Amendments on the Report stage to two or three points, which seem to us important, as the result of the discussions in Committee, and we have done that for two reasons—first of all, to try to show, as best we can, our appreciation of the very considerate way in which our Amendments were met in Committee; and, in the second place, to try to hasten, as far as we possibly can, the passage of this Bill, in order that housing schemes in Scotland may proceed at the earliest possible moment, and certainly, we should hope, before the 1712 coming winter commences. The new Clause which I beg to move deals with an effort to control the supplies and prices of building materials which are necessary under these housing schemes. In Committee there was, I think, substantial agreement that if anything like reasonable progress was to be made with housing in the near future, there would be a very serious call on all classes of building materials, and it is no exaggeration of the existing position as regards the supply of these materials in Scotland to say that, to a quite considerable extent, they are supplied, or their supply is controlled, by a limited number of firms, which work more or less in association with one another, so that a combine difficulty or the difficulty of a growing trust in the supply of these materials is a reality North of the Tweed. There can be hardly any difference of opinion that, while we have no desire either as a House or as individulals to stint money in overtaking this housing problem, which is so urgently necessary, it is desirable that we should take every step in our power to prevent the unnecessary expenditure of public money by the payment of inflated or exaggerated prices for these supplies. When this matter was discussed in Committee, it was pointed out, in reply to a proposed new Clause, that the matter had not entirely escaped attention; that, in point of fact, it was receiving the consideration of one of in Departments of the Ministry of Munitions, which, presumably at no distant date, will be the Ministry of Supply.

In view of the objections which were offered to the Clause in its old form, I have reshaped and reworded it to amount to simply this in practice, that where, in the opinion of the Local Government Board, or of any local authority or district committee, the prices for these materials are unnecessarily high, and a solution of the housing problem is being partly or largely endangered thereby, there shall be power of representation by the Local Government Board, with or without a letter or communication from a local authority, to the appropriate Government Department in charge of this matter. It may be argued in reply to that suggestion that this is really unnecessary, and that the Ministry of Supply would, of its own accord, tackle a question or a difficulty of this kind. The contention is, that it is probably impossible, having regard to the ramifications and the demands of reconstruction, for any Government Department, however 1713 efficient to keep an eye on all that is happening from one end of the country to the other, and, least of all, is it possible to expect that comprehensive view from a Department which is new to this matter, and has a great deal to learn with regard to these housing and other schemes. Is there any reason why, in the set of circumstances I have tried to describe, there should be any hesitation in incorporating a Clause in the Bill which makes it possible for the Local Government Board, or for the local authority indirectly, to communicate with such Department to attract its attention to the existence of these high prices, and to the manner in which they are prejudicing the solution of this problem, which so urgently calls for our attention? The practical side of this is that, in the light of all the estimates which have boon passed already, or which are now in process of consideration in Scotland, it is abundantly clear that the cost per house is going to be a very serious consideration. I saw a set of estimates for one of the urban areas in Scotland the other day, in which the cost per house is going to work out at between £400 and £800, and there cannot be the slightest doubt that, even if we overtake in the coming year only a part of the housing that is required North of the Tweed, that will involve us in a very large amount of public expenditure. It is our plain duty to try to keep that within reasonable limits, and it is also our plain duty to try to prevent in the post war period all profiteering in these supplies. It is to that end that this new Clause, which I believe to be of importance justifying its presentation on the Report stage of this Bill, is directed, and I sincerely hope it may command, in the revised form, the sympathy and consideration of the Secretary for Scotland.

§ THE SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. Munro)

I desire to acknowledge the courtesy of the hon. Member in connection with this and the other Amendments for which he is responsible. I do not differ from his observations in any important particular. My only doubt is whether this is a Clause which is appropriate, or, indeed, effective, for the purpose for which it is desired. The Clause, which I have seen this morning for the first time, and which was put on the Paper, I understand, last night, really resolves itself in a direction to the Local Government Board—or 1714 the Board of Health, as it now is—to write a letter; that is what it comes to. One Government Department is enjoined to communicate with another Government Department, and that other Government Department one, be it observed, which may not exist in the future. Whether the Ministry of Supply will continue to exist or not is not for me to say; but, having regard to its history up till now, I do not think there is any certainty that this or any resembling Department will be found to exist in the future. Apart, however, from that, may I ask my hon. Friend's attention to the fact that his new Clause does not place any duty whatever upon the Ministry of Supply, nor does it confer any power upon them. All that the Local Government Board or the Ministry of Health is to do is to communicate or writes a letter to the Ministry of Supply. In the absence of any duty or any power given to that Ministry, I doubt very much—in fact, I am really certain that this Amendment as framed will not effect the purpose which my hon. Friend has in view. He may rest assured that a communication of the sort would, in point of fact, be made, apart altogether from a statutory injunction. I doubt whether this is really a matter appropriate for Statute. It is a matter of administration between one Government Department and another. I can give him the assurance that in the circumstances suggested in the new Clause such communication would inevitably pass. The Ministry of Supply works in close conjunction with the Board of Health in Scotland, and the Board of Health, in this matter, is in close touch with all the local authorities throughout Scotland with a view to obtaining for them the material which they desire. In these circumstances I would ask my hon. Friend not to press this new Clause; not because I differ from his arguments, but because I profoundly differ from him as to the effect of the Clause. If he desires me to give an assurance that I will look into this matter again before the Bill is considered in another place, I am willing to give that assurance; but I do not, as I see it at present, think the Clause will be effective for the purpose proposed.