§ Considered in Committee.
§ [Sir E. CORNWAL in the Chair.]
§ Mr. BALDWINI beg to move,
That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to guarantee the payment of interest on a loan to be raised by the Government of the Soudan not exceeding an amount sufficient to raise £6,000,000 and to charge on the Consolidated Find any moneys required to fulfil such guarantee.Following on the point to which I alluded when addressing the House a few minutes ago, I had not intended issuing a White Paper on this matter, because here we have a Financial Resolution which is in effect merely a guarantee and which will not involve a. charge on the Exchequer. But, I have arranged now to have a description printed and circulated, which I undertake will be in the Vote Office before the Report stage of this Vote is taken. A Bill with a similar object was passed into law about a year before the War, and is now an Act of Parliament, guaranteeing the interest on a sum of £3,000,000 for irrigation work in the Soudan, which was very urgently needed. All work sanctioned by that Act has, of course, been suspended throughout the War, but it is now considered very desirable, on grounds of policy which will be explained on the Second Reading of the Bill by my hon. Friend the Under - Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, to proceed with the work. The work which was estimated to cost £3,000,000 before the War will cost £6,000,000 now. What I want to call the attention of the Committee to is this: All the Bill proposes to do is to guarantee the interest on that loan. The reason of the guarantee of this country being desired is 854 that the Soudan Government can borrow on better terms if they have that guarantee than if they have to go into the market without it. For the information of the Committee, I may tell them that the Treasury have full authority to examine the financial position of the Soudan Government, and no loan can be issued under the Government guarantee in this country until the Treasury are satisfied that there are and will be ample funds provided out of the revenues of the Soudan Government to pay all the interest on loans it is desired to raise. I hope that with that brief explanation and in the knowledge that the House will have an opportunity of discussing the policy involved on the introduction of the Bill, they will allow me to take the Committee stage of this Resolution this afternoon.
§ Major Earl WINTERTONThis, as anybody who has been in the Soudan and understands the position there knows, is a very vital matter to a growing part of the British Empire. May I suggest to the Financial Secretary that before the Second Reading of the Bill comes on there should be issued by the Foreign Office or by the Department concerned a statement as to the progress already made on the work and the further steps that are going to be taken? The Financial Secretary was not altogether accurate in saying that no work had been done during the War. The work was commenced before the War, and I understand that a certain amount has been done during the War. The situation is not quite the same as it was before the War, because there is a serious difference of opinion between certain engineering experts—Sir William Willcocks and Sir William Garstin, who have as much knowledge of the Soudan as any living people—and the Soudan Government, I would suggest to the Government that as they are guaranteeing this loan, and we are making ourselves responsible for it in this country, there should be issued by the Foreign Office a statement as to the progress already made and how the work is to be carried out in future. There is due from the Government an answer to the serious strictures Sir William Will cocks has made on the scheme. He has issued a pamphlet. Probably it has reached some Members of the House. A copy reached me two or three days ago Possibly he only sent it to those interested in Egypt. In that pamphlet he made certain strictures upon 855 the conduct of the Irrigation Department in the Soudan. I was unaware that this Committee was coming on this afternoon, and I did not read the pamphlet very carefully. I am not quite sure whether his strictures concern the actual work carried on or the general conduct of the Irrigation Department of the Soudan. In either case they are affected by the situation. Obviously, if the Irrigation Department, which is responsible for erecting the dam, is inefficient at all, or if its policy is wrong, then this guarantee ought not to be given.
This project is of immense importance. We obtain at present something like 9 or 10 per cent. of the total supplies coming to this country from the Soudan, the remaining 90 per cent. coming from other foreign countries. If this dam is constructed the cotton supply obtainable direct from the Soudan in the future will increase by something like 5 or 6 per cent. of the whole, which is a considerable amount. There is in the Soudan some of the best cotton-growing land in the world. A portion of it is irrigated by hand pumps and also by small pumps which have been put up by private industry. But when the dam is built it will be possible under Government control to water the whole country in the confluence between the White and the Blue Nile. One of Sir William Willcocks' strictures against the policy of the Soudan Irrigation Department is that they have not taken proper steps to deal with the great area on the White Nile known as the Bahr-el-Ghazelle. I am probably one of the few Members present who have seen that country. It is the greatest water-logged area in the world. In the wet season there are millions of acres under water, but owing to the presence of sudd, the Nile weed, the water cannot be utilised. Sir William Willcocks says had the Soudan Irrigation Department used their sudd-destroying steamer much more water would be available, and I understand on that ground he is opposed to the part of the policy that underlies the project for a dam. That is another matter which should be answered in this Paper which I press the Financial Secretary to put on the Table of the House before we discuss the Second Reading.
I heard with some alarm the closing words of the hon. Gentleman that the Treasury would have full authority to examine the financial position of the Soudan Government. No one could object 856 to that, of course, but I trust the Treasury is not going to take up a very red-tape attitude.
§ Mr. BALDWINIf I used that phrase I merely meant that we should satisfy ourselves that we were able to pay the interest on the loan, and that there would be no charge on this country.
§ Earl WINTERTONI am sure the hon. Gentleman would be the last Minister who would take up an unreasonable attitude. But the Soudan Government is necessarily somewhat poor. By strenuous hard work it has built up a fairly satisfactory financial position which, however, is greatly affected by such questions as the crops and the cattle position, and matters of that kind, and it is quite conceivable that if its assets were examined in any one year they might not fulfil any hard conditions which might be laid down by the Treasury, and I hope the Government will look on their position from that point of view. Anyone who has seen the good effect of loans guaranteed by this Government for Imperial development—as, for example, the guaranteed loan in the case of the Uganda Railway, and the work that has already been done in the Soudan—cannot fail to see that very good results as a rule come from such a guarantee. I think there is no part of the Empire which would respond more quickly to money being spent on it — and money can only be raised economically by guarantee of the Treasury—than will the Soudan. Nothing is more necessary than to increase the cotton-growing area of the British Empire.
§ Captain ORMSBY-GOREI hope before we proceed to another stage of this matter we shall have from the Government a really full statement on this question. It is absolutely essential, both in the interests of this country, of the Soudan, and of Egypt, that this question should be thoroughly explored in public. I am rather amazed at the procedure adopted by the Government of taking this Resolution before producing any White Paper or any statement. I hope the hon. Gentleman will not delay in producing a very full statement. The first thing that we must consider is the financial position of the Soudan Government. Is it or is it not true—I express no opinion one way or the other—that in spite of efforts in the Soudan and the very efficient revenue and financial system in that country, if it was 857 not for the relations between the Financial Department in Egypt and the Soudan the Soudan would not be paying its way? That is a point which must be explored. Then with regard to actual policy, it is most important that we should be enlightened on the effect which any of this work will have upon Egypt. You cannot treat Egypt and the Soudan as two. If you are going in for a large irrigation system in the Soudan you will undoubtedly affect Egypt. There is a remarkably interesting letter in the "Times" this morning from Sir Wm, Willcocks who, whatever may be our opinion on the broad issues between him and the other irrigation experts in regard to this individual Soudan project, is universally recognised as probably the greatest genius in regard to irrigation that the world has ever seen. The conclusion which the man in the street draws from that, quite rightly, is that the Nile is one. Until the water from the Blue Nile to the mountains of Abyssinia and the White Nile to the central lakes of Africa reaches the Mediterranean you cannot regard the Nile as being split up into different compartments in different countries under different sovereignties and different political and economic conditions, but the whole thing has got to be treated as one river. Therefore we want to have very el early before us, before we sanction the further stage of this Resolution, the precise effect which this largely increased expenditure is going to have, not only on the development of the particular area of the Soudan affected, but also on the Assouan dam and on the water available for irrigation below Wady Halfa. We want information as to the actual policy. That is to say, whether the actual policy, which is, I believe, a policy which dates back to the time of Lord Kitchener, is still endorsed by all the other experts, other than Sir William Willcocks, and whether the Government, now that they are coming to Parliament for a fresh guarantee, have considered any of the other alternatives, and are fully satisfied that the Soudan Government are going to make the best use of the money, not merely in the interests of Lancashire, or even in the interests of the Soudan, but in the interests of the whole population living on the Nile, from Victoria Nyanza. It is most important that we should have a full statement on this point. We are now guaranteeing an increased loan to the Soudan, a country which it is our duty to 858 develop, and which we in this country would be well advised in our own interests to develop at the earliest possible moment, but we cannot do that unless we are absolutely satisfied that the Soudan Government is going to remain in such a position that we can look forward with confidence to making good. It is the Anglo-Egyptian Soudan—
§ The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN (Sir E. Cornwall)We must not enter into a general discussion on the Financial Resolution.
§ Captain ORMSBY GOREI quite appreciate that it is improper to go into broad questions of politics, but when we are guaranteeing a loan of £6,000,000 instead of £3,000,000, as it was before the War, it is our duty to get from the Government their assurance that in any political changes that they contemplate in Egypt with regard to the Soudan Government we have an absolutely clear indication of what the future of that Government is going to be You cannot guarantee a loan to the Soudan Government unless we are quite satisfied that the Government is stable, and is going to last, and that we are in a position in advancing this loan to ensure its repayment.
4.0 P.M.
Has there been any attempt on the part of the Treasury or the Foreign Office in regard to this loan to get any support for the loan from the Egyptian Government or any share of the responsibility for the loan taken up by the Egyptian Government? I do not wish to lay down anything dogmatic, but it occurs to rue that there is no country in the world that has waxed fatter in the War than Egypt, and Egypt is as vitally concerned as we are in this loan and the work to be carried out under the loan. Has there been any negotiation between the British and Egyptian Treasuries with the suggestion that some share of the guaranteeing of this loan, if such a thing is desirable or necessary, should be taken by the Egyptian Government? That is a question upon which we might have information in the White Paper. I do not wish to obstruct this Resolution, because I am certain that the House will be well advised to allow British credit to be placed at the back of the Soudan Government in the task of developing that gigantic country. That country will be one of the great countries of the future. Africa as a whole has a great future and no part of Africa has a greater future than the 859 upper parts of the Nile. At the present time, owing to the devastations by the Mahdi, it is a thinly-populated country. In one generation the population was reduced from 7,000,000 to 2,000,000. There is no doubt that it is a country in which it is wise that British capital and British credit should be used, in order to develop the country in the interests of humanity and civilisation.
§ Sir R. ADKINSThe Committee will be grateful, from the speeches of the Noble Lord and the hon. and gallant Member, for the services they have rendered in directing the attention of the Committee and of the public to this matter. There can be no reason why anyone should obstruct the passage of this Vote, and I imagine that there is a, wish on the part of all who are interested in, and whose imagination has been stirred by, the great historic problems of the Nile valley, that this enlargement of guarantee shall be done with the informed consent of this Committee and of the public, as a matter which will not end here and is not meant to end here. It is really the opening of a new page, if not the opening of a new chapter, in a very important part of our Imperial responsibilities. This is one of those matters which has a very intimate bearing on one of the greatest of our own home industries, which cannot possibly be severed from the interests of Egypt itself, and which is bound up with a problem dating far back before our Empire—the great problem of the development of the economic position of the Nile valley in the interests of civilisation in many parts of the world. That being so, it is of high importance that a Motion of this kind can be brought forward in this form, and should not be finally pressed by the House without the greatest amount of information that the Government can give and the best opportunity that can be made available for a thorough discussion of the matter. I hope the Secretary to the Treasury will see that when the Report stage of this Vote is put down that it is put down on a day and at a time which allows a thorough discussion, and I join in the hope that he will make the White Paper as fully informative as possible. It is of real significance that what is done should be done well and thoroughly and in a way that will command the ever growing and intelligent support by the British people 860 of something that will be for the benefit of this country, and, as we think, for civilisation generally.
§ Mr. HASLAMI am not a Lancashire Member, but I am a Lancashire man interested in the cotton industry and also in that part of the industry which gets the greatest part of its raw material, cotton, from Egypt. I should like to endorse what has been said as to the immense importance of increasing the amount of cotton grown within the Empire. The Government cannot lay too much stress upon that. Lancashire now is depending for nine-tenths of its cotton—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANWe cannot enter into a discussion in regard to Lancashire and Egyptian cotton, but we must confine ourselves to the Financial Resolution.
§ Mr. HASLAMThis loan is to be used to help irrigation.
§ Earl WINTERTONOn a point of Order. The sole object of this guarantee is to guarantee money which is going to be spent on a dam to increase cotton growing in the Soudan. Is it not in order to discuss the object for which the guarantee is being given?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANWe are dealing with the Financial Resolution, and not with the Bill. I am well aware that when the Bill is introduced it will be largely a Financial Bill. At the same time, it is my duty to keep to the custom of the House in Committee, and to see that we discuss only the Financial Resolution and not the Bill. In this case it is rather difficult, but I hope the Committee will assist me in the matter.
§ Sir R. ADKINSIt is surely in order on the point of the amount of money to be voted by this Resolution to show how one of the great interests of the country is increasingly dependent on the kind of product which this Grant is meant to foster?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat is a discussion which comes on the Second Reading of the Bill, and not on the Financial Resolution.
§ Mr. HOGGEWe are taking a discussion in the Committee stage without having seen the Bill. So far as I know, there is no Bill printed. Is it not unusual to take the Committee stage of a public 861 Bill which is not printed? We have got to see the Bill before we consider this Committee stage.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANIt is quite clear that the Committee must keep as far as possible to the Financial Resolution and not cover the whole grounds of the Bill. If would not do to have the same discussion on the Financial Resolution as on the Bill.
§ Earl WINTERTONIs not this rather different from an ordinary Financial Resolution? It is a Financial Resolution of guarantee. Therefore, surely it is in order to discuss the abject for which the guarantee is being given? We are not discussing anything else.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANA certain amount of discretion is left to the Chair in a matter of this kind. One might confine it to the question whether any Grant should be given or not. I might confine it strictly to that, but Members must have regard to the fact that a general discussion will take place on the Bill, and while some references may be made at this stage, a general discussion would be out of order.
§ Mr. HASLAMI will conclude by saying that I trust that this money, or a large portion of it, will be expended in a manner which will increase the growth of cotton in Egypt, and the prosperity of Lancashire and of this country.
§ Mr. HOGGEThis proposal is to double a financial Grant which has already been agreed to. I should be interested to know on what basis we require to double this Grant, because if it is necessary to double a loan of £3,000,000 to the Soudan for the purpose of doing this work, it is a rather useful average on which to double a great many other Grants which have been promised in this House for various public works. Therefore, it is interesting to see the basis on which this is increased; but does not this show the folly and the inadvisability of the Government asking us to take the Committee stage without having the White Paper in front of us? This is the Committee stage, on which at least two hon. Members have spoken with a considerable amount of intimate knowledge of the conditions in the Soudan. Neither of them will be able to make more than one speech on the Report stage of this Vote, and I dare say that my hon. Friend had that in mind when he promised a White Paper on Report, which would prevent my 862 two hon. Friends joining in the discussion. I do honestly think, when we are asking the House of Commons to agree to a possible expenditure of £6,000,000, that it is not right to do so without having the White Paper in the form of a memorandum showing how it has been arrived at and what it is meant to do with it. In the previous discussion this afternoon we were considering what was potentially a very large financial question on a typewritten document which had been put in the Vote Office. Surely there is no greater difficulty in the Government putting their White Paper in the Vote Office before they ask for the Committee stage of this Resolution than there would be in putting it there between the Committee stage and the Report stage. Unless there is some pressing necessity why the Committee stage should be taken this afternoon I would suggest to the representatives of the Treasury that he does not take it, and that he completes the Committee stage after putting the White Paper in the Vote Office, so that Members who are interested might have the advantage of discussing the matter, with knowledge.
§ Mr. BALDWINI always like to accede to a request that is put to me as pleasantly as this request has been put, but I think I must give my reasons for asking the House to complete this stage to-day. It is very seldom that the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) is in error, but he is in error on this occasion. When a Bill is based on a Financial Resolution that Bill cannot be printed and circulated until the leave of the House is given to the bringing in of the Bill. That cannot be done until the Financial Resolution has been reported to the House. That is the reason why, on Resolutions of this nature, the Committee stage and Report stage of the Resolution have almost invariably been treated as purely formal. The House has not sanctioned the expenditure until the Bill which is brought in becomes law. I think that alters completely the situation as conceived by some hon. Members. There have been very interesting speeches delivered on the subject to which this Resolution refers. Though I say so with profound respect to the Chair, I thought we were getting a little wide of the mark, and for this reason: It will be for the Foreign Office, whose Bill this is to be, to justify the contents of the Bill when it comes before the House. The reason why I circulated no 863 White Paper I explained when I first rose this afternoon. I will circulate one before the Report stage. There really is some urgency in this matter. I had not myself been aware for many days that this Bill was wanted before the House rose, but we are advised that unless the loan is raised within a short period from now in the City it may be difficult for some time to float it successfully. Before any guarantee of any loan is sanctioned in this House, the Bill that will be brought in on this Resolution will have to go through all its stages, will have to be discussed in this House, and it will also have to undergo its passage in another place. I have much hope that with that explanation the Committee will proceed with this stage of the Resolution.
§ Colonel YATEI welcome this Resolution and am delighted that no one, with the exception of that of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, has offered the slightest objection to it. I am pleased we are going to give this guarantee to the Soudan. It is a policy which all our Colonies require for development.
§ Earl WINTERTONPerhaps the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs could issue. a statement on the subject, and particularly as regards irrigation and Sir William Willcocks.
§ The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Cecil Harmsworth)My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has already promised a White Paper, and I will consider the desirability of issuing a White Paper touching on the more political aspects of the question. I hope we shall not be asked to go into highly controversial matters as between Sir William Willcocks and other irrigation authorities in Egypt. I do not think that is a subject which could be dealt with in a White Paper in the House.
Sir J. D. REESWill this White Paper be made public in Egypt as well as for the information of Members of Parliament, so that the fellaheen and others concerned in Egypt will know what is going forward with regard to irrigation?
§ Sir R. ADKINSThe matters in dispute affect irrigation particularly, and I am sure the Members of the House will be grateful for the utmost amount of assistance possible in the White Paper on that particular issue.
§ Earl WINTERTONSir Wm. Willcocks, who is perhaps the greatest irrigation expert in the world, has taken the serious course of sending to every Member of this House a pamphlet in which he attacks the policy which this guarantee is going to support. Whether he is right or wrong I think it is the duty of the Government to give us some statement on the subject and answer the charges made.
§ Mr. HARMSWORTHI should say the charges of Sir William Willcocks have already been met by the Report of a very important Committee set up by the Foreign Office. I am not quite sure whether copies of that Report are not in the Library at the present moment, but, if they are not, I will again inquire as to the feasibility of depositing copies of the Report there. As to the question of my hon. Friend behind me (Sir J. D. Rees), I think the discussion in this House will be the best method of giving the people of Egypt the general information which they might desire. I do not understand that he suggests that the people of Egypt should be brought in some way into this discussion. I should have thought that the fact that the officers of the two Governments are in the closest collaboration in this matter for the purposes of legislation would be satisfactory as far as they are concerned.
Sir J. D. REESPerhaps my hon. Friend could arrange with the authorities in Egypt to make public in Cairo roughly what these proposals, are.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.