HC Deb 17 July 1919 vol 118 cc653-4

Considered in Committee.—[Progress, 14th July.]

[MR. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

The CHAIRMAN

Before I read the Vote to the Committee it will perhaps be desirable that I should explain why in my opinion one of the subjects which, I understand, some hon. Members desired to raise to-day will not be in order. I refer to the question of Colour service counting for Civil Service pensions. I have looked very carefully into the matter, and I find on referring to the Superannuation Act, 1892, and the Superannuation Act, 1887, that the question can only be dealt with by legislation. That takes it outside the scope of our discussion in Committee in Supply.

Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEE

Is it not a fact that on previous occasions we have discussed the matter on this Vote?

The CHAIRMAN

If so, there has been carelessness on the part of the Chairman whoever he was. It may have been myself—not then having looked into it so carefully as on this occasion. But I think if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look at the two Acts to which I have referred, particularly to the Superannuation Act, 1892, Section 4, he will find the terms of that Section are conclusive on the matter.

Mr. HOGGE

Your ruling will not, I suppose, exclude discussion of other Army questions which do arise naturally. It will not exclude other questions which naturally arise on the Post Office Vote—a discussion, say, on the distribution of war service gratuities by the Postmaster-General, which are paid by the country, but are distributed by my right hon. Friend?

The CHAIRMAN

That is quite a different question. Anything that is within the limit of the administrative power of the Postmaster-General can be discussed on the Post Office Vote.

Brigadier-General PAGE CROFT

Does your ruling apply to the case of what is known as the K Company of the Royal Engineers, which is a case where the pensions are not being granted for the ser- vices of men actually in the Post Office, and which was dealt with by the Holt Committee?

The CHAIRMAN

That requires legislation.

Colonel BURN

When will an opportunity be given to discuss the question of counting the Colour service for special pension?

The CHAIRMAN

Not on any Vote in Committee of Supply. That is all I am concerned about. In Committee of Supply, on whatever Vote, we can only deal with something that is within the administrative competence of the Minister under existing legislation. Hon. Members who wish to press for amending legislation can use other forms of the House, but not Committee of Supply.

Colonel BURN

Can it be brought up on the Estimates?

The CHAIRMAN

No; not on the Estimates.

Earl WINTERTON

Would it not come under the Army Vote for men, seeing there was clearly a promise made to these men that this service should count towards their Post Office pension? The Leader of the House was asked about it the other day.

The CHAIRMAN

Any promise made by the Minister of War is open to discussion on the Army Vote.