NEW CLAUSE.—(Provisions as to Orders in Council.) (Hansard, 1 July 1919)

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I beg to move, That the Clause be read a second time." I propose to move the second part as an Amendment to Clause 2. I think the Government can accept this, because it only lays down that, before an Order in Council is made, notice shall be given in order to secure publicity. The second part of the Clause, which is out of order here, may be more controversial.

§ Mr. SHORTT
I would ask my right hon. Friend not to press this Clause, unless he puts into it the words, "under Sections 8 and 10 of this Act." My right hon. Friend will recollect that, under Sections 8 an3 10, there is provision for Orders in Council, which deal with much more controversial matters. One is an Order in Council dealing with any fresh enterprise, and Section 10 deals with an, Order in Council which authorises the purchase of privately-owned wagons. In Committee it was decided that in both those cases an Order should lie on the Table of the House, and no purchase be 859 made until a Resolution had been passed by both Houses. In those cases it is quite right to provide for publicity; otherwise this Amendment of my right hon. Friend would not affect these Sections at all. But, so far as Section 2 is concerned, the matter is quite different. We could not possibly agree to any such provision with regard to Section 2, but if my right hon. Friend will insert the words, so that the Clause will run, "Before any Order in Council under Sections 8 and 10 of this Act," then we will accept it.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
May I ask my right hon. Friend if he will say why he cannot accept the Clause as it is? He has merely stated that Clauses 8 and 10 already have provisions with regard to draft Orders in Council lying on the Table of the House, and he says he does not mind including these particular Clauses in my new Clause, but he does not give any reasons why the other Orders in Council relating to other Clauses in the Bill should not be treated in the same way. Perhaps he will say why, if it is right in the case of two of these Clauses that notice should be given, it is wrong as regards the other Clauses to have notice given.

§ Mr. SHORTT
The only other Clause in the Bill which provides for Orders in Council is Clause 2. Clause 2 is a very different matter from the Clause which deals with new enterprises, or the Clause which deals with taking away from private owners their privately-owned wagons. Clause 2 merely refers to the transfer of powers which has already been decided by the House of Commons on Second Reading and in Committee. All that the Order in Council does in that case is to decide the date on which the transfer is to take place. You might require it at a time when the House is not sitting. The delay and all that sort of thing might be very detrimental to the work of the Ministry, and it is not a matter which requires the decision of the House in the way the other did. Those are the only Clauses in the Bill which have any Order in Council at all.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
May I point out to my right hon. Friend that Clause 2 goes considerably beyond what he says. It deals with any powers of any Government Department with respect to the making, confirming, issuing, granting, or giving (as the case may be) of by- 860 laws, regulations, orders, licences, approvals, or consents relating to any of the matters hereinbefore mentioned. All I ask is that before Orders dealing with these very import ant matters arts promulgated, that, at any rate, notice should be given in the proper quarters, where the draft Orders could be seen. I really think this is a most reasonable request, and I hope, after consideration, my right hon. Friend will accede to it.

§ Mr. SHORTT
May I remind my right hon. Friend that we have already circulated a White Paper which shows exactly what are the powers to be transferred to the Ministry? All that this Order in Council will do is to say that the powers of the Board of Trade will be transferred to the Ministry on a certain date. That is the Order in Council, and why it should be necessary to wait until Parliament is sitting to do that, when Parliament has already decided that the powers are to be transferred, I cannot imagine. It is only a question of the date. The powers arc, in fact, transferred.

§ Lord H. CECIL
I cannot see that the right hon. Gentleman's argument has any bearing on the question of publication in the "London Gazette." 1 should have thought it would have been on every ground exceedingly convenient that there should be publicity.

§ Mr. SHORTT
The last words are struck out.

§ Lord H. CECIL
I am merely pointing out that publicity is an advantage in all these matters, and that it is highly desirable that we should have an authentic record.

§ Sir D. MACLEAN
I hope the two right hon. Gentlemen in charge of this Bill will see the force of the argument, from a business point of view, to the whole business community. Whatever may have been decided by this House, the business world at large should know what has been done. I agree that some weight ought to be attached to the statement made by the Home Secretary that it may be necessary to make an Order in Council during our Autumn Vacation, when we are not sitting here, perhaps, for two months, and I think if my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) would leave out the last words, "the draft of the Order shall be laid before each House of Parliament," then everybody will agree to it.

§ Colonel GRETTON
I think my right hon. Friend who moved this Clause would be well advised to agree to the proposal of the Government, who would accept his Clause if it applied to Clauses 8 and 10 of the Bill. The one serious objection which has been raised to the proposed Clause is that the draft Order should be laid before both Houses of Parliament in cases under Clause 2 of this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman cannot abandon these words as suggested, because they are of great importance as regards Clauses 8 and 10. Parliament certainly ought to be informed of the draft Orders made.

§ Mr. SHORTT
May I point out that Clauses 8 and 10 provide not only for the draft Orders being laid on the Table of the House, but they cannot come into force until the House adopts them.

§ Colonel GRETTON
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the explanation, but I think he will find that relates to the Orders themselves. This is the draft Order, and it is before the draft Order, which becomes an Order, is made. The two things are rather different. But 1 think my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Ban-bury) will be well advised to accept what the Government offer him, and that his proposal will be a very great advantage to the business community.

§ Sir R. ADKINS
As my right hon. Friend opposite (Sir D. Maclean) has pointed out, we want as wide publicity as possible in regard to every Order. Would not the case be met if we stated at the end, ''the draft of the Order shall be laid before each House of Parliament if sitting at the time of the draft?" We want as much publicity as possible, and the whole policy of the Government and Parliament ought to be to give as much publicity as possible to what they are doing.

Sir F. BAN BURY
If I were to accept the words "if sitting at the time of the draft," this might happen. The words might be held to apply to Clause 8 and Clause 10, which already have a provision that the draft should be laid before Parliament. I do not want in any way to minimise those Clauses, and therefore I think I had better ask leave to withdraw the Clause in order to move it in an amended form, and to leave out the words, "and the draft of the Order shall be laid before each House of Parliament." I understand the Home Secretary will accept it in that form, or, perhaps it 862 might be better that the Clause should be read a second time, and that I should then move an Amendment to leave out those words.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
I beg to move to leave out the words, and the draft of the Order shall be laid before each House of Parliament.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
What will become of the suggestion to insert the words, "under Sections 8 and 10 of this Bill"?

§ Mr. SHORTT
I do not move that.

§ Lord H. CECIL
No objection, I imagine, will arise as a matter of Order to the subsequent part of my Friend's Clause being put as an Amendment, with, perhaps, the addition of those words that we are cutting out this Clause if they are necessary on Clause 2. We are not coming to any decision, by cutting out these words, which will stand in the way of dealing with the matter when we come to Clause 2?

§ Mr. SPEAKER
I think that will be open to the House then.