CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Regulate Aerial Navigation.) (Hansard, 17 February 1919)

§ Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "State" ["a Secretary of State"], to insert the words, with the approval of a Select or Grand Committee of the House of Commons. The point I want to press is that from a constitutional point of view we ought to know a little more of these Regulations before the House parts with this Bill. I do not ask that the right hon. Gentleman should consent to refer the Bill to a Grand Committee, but would it not be possible, before the Report stage or before the Third Reading, to show some of us the Regulations? We really are giving a blank cheque to the Government to make any Regulations they like. However friendly we may be to the Government, however much we desire to help them, yet they ought to give us some undertaking that we shall see the Regulations before the House finally parts with the Bill.

§ General SEELY
I quite appreciate that my hon. Friend does not press this Amendment, because in its form it would be a rather novel procedure. The real point he 689 raises is whether the House cannot have some say in these Regulations before it finally parts with the Bill. I have the draft Regulations here. It would be a great convenience to get the Bill, in order to commence civilian flying. Would it not be well for me to ask hon. Members to take the Committee stage now, then for me to circulate the draft Regulations to those interested, and then to take the Third Reading? Those of us who have been many years in the House of Commons know that all sorts of pitfalls may be encountered. Any group of Members might object very much to this, that, or the other, and we might not be able to get the Bill through. I wish I could meet the wishes of my hon. Friends without losing the Bill. I am sure they appreciate, especially those of them who have been in previous Parliaments, that any Minister who wants to get a Bill for this purpose is likely to meet difficulties. Perhaps I could pass the draft Regulations round now, although I am afraid that would not give time for consideration. I am in the hands of the Committee, but I give my assurance that everything done under this Bill, and all that is proposed, are with the intention of giving the greatest possible latitude for civilian flying while insisting upon public safety. When the Regulations are laid my hon. Friends will have an opportunity of debating them outside the ordinary Rules of the House at any hour of the day or night. I respectfully suggest that it would be best to pass the Bill, then for me to lay the draft Regulations at the earliest possible moment, then by question and answer to elucidate doubtful points, and finally to accept my assurance that everything shall be done in this matter to help and not hinder.

§ Major Sir HENRY NORMAN
We are all desirous to help the Bill, which is evidently necessary. It is exceedingly drastic, but in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said and the spirit in which he approaches all of us to take a special interest in the air, we naturally desire to help him to the utmost of our power. At the same time, we do not like to let the Bill go entirely without any idea of some of the more detailed aspects of the Regulations. Would it not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to circulate his Regulations among those specially interests, or to any Member who specially desires to see them, between the Committee stage and the Report stage? There will have to be a Report stage, because 690 there is one purely verbal alteration which I want to suggest, which I am quite sure will be immediately accepted, I do not think the circulation of the Regulations will involve any delay.

§ Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS
May I suggest another way out of the difficulty, namely, that the right hon. Gentleman should circulate the Regulations to the executive of the Parliamentary Air Committee? It is only a voluntary Committee, but everybody interested in flying is a member of it, and we shall be glad to discuss the matter with the right hon. Gentleman.

Captain BENN
The right hon. Gentleman has already promised to accept one Amendment which necessitates a Report stage. May I remind him that although what he has said may be true of other Parliaments, this Parliament is a Parliament in itself, and that he has not been met by any form of obstruction. Our desire is to get the Bill, but we also desire to have an opportunity of considering it in detail, and, in particular, of considering the Orders to be made under it. I therefore suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should give us one or two Amendments—he has already indicated he is prepared to do that—and then let the Report stage be put down for another day. No one will obstruct the progress of the Bill. In the meantime perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would circulate these Orders he proposes to make to the Committee on Air, and also to the Air Force Committee, which comprises all Members of the House who have served in the Royal Air Force during the War.

§ General SEELY
I should certainly think the best course will be to accept the suggestion made by the hon. Member opposite, and all we have to do is to make quite sure that there is a Report stage and pass rapidly through the rest of the Bill so that we may carry it out. I think that will probably meet the wishes of everyone. I will circulate the proposed Regulations—of course, they are only proposed Regulations now—to both the Committees which are referred to, and, of course, to any hon. Members who desire to see them. Then at a later stage we shall come to the Report stage and shall be able to approach it with full knowledge of what is done. Even in this, the model Parliament, obstruction may possibly hereafter be not entirely unknown, and I appeal to all my hon. Friends interested 691 in the Air Force to help us to get it through the important stage of Third Reading when the time comes.

Mr. DENNISS
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the word "aerial" ["to regulate aerial navigation"], and insert instead thereof the word"air."

§ General SEELY
I entirely agree that the word "aerial" is a horrible word. It is so difficult to say. But at the same time it has been accepted for some time back as a proper term, and I cannot think of another. Air navigation, of course, has the objection that air is a substantive and not an adjective. My right hon. Friend tells me sea bathing has a substantive with it. It is perfectly possible that by the alteration of a title you may greatly inconvenience other possible words, but I will bear it in mind. If I can put it in on the Report stage I will. I share the hon. Member's objection to the term.

Captain BENN
I bog to move, at the end of Subsection (1. b), to add the words, used for carrying passengers, goods, and mails.

§ General SEELY
That is certainly the intention, but it is a little dangerous to accept words at a moment's notice which may, of course, have the effect, if you are not careful, of prohibiting you from accepting others. I think if we could have the Amendment in these words, "especially those used for the carriage of passengers, goods, and mails," that would meet the case, and the House would have my assurance that that is the intention. Then we shall safeguard the State if it has to inspect at some other time for some other purpose.

§ Sir H. NORMAN
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1, e), after the word "goods" ["The condition under which goods"], to insert the word "and."
As this Sub-section reads it shows a rather improper use of the English language. I want to suggest that it should read as follows: "The conditions 692 under which goods and mails may be imported and exported and passengers transported."