§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum not exceeding £2,862,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the expense of
1484
the Personnel for Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc., at Dockyards and Naval Yards at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1920, in addition to the sum of £9,146,000 to be allocated for this purpose from the sum of £120,000,000 voted on account of Navy Services generally.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
I do so to draw attention to two extraordinary items that have appeared. Before doing so, may I remind the Committee of one of the many descriptions given in the eighteenth century of a gentleman? It was that he was a person who was used to sitting-up at night. May I now proceed with the items in question? Attention, I think, was quite rightly drawn in the Debate to the "Antrim" as being an extraordinary ship on which to spend £161,292. The right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary has stated that the "Antrim" is going to be used as a signalling school. The "Antrim" was built in 1902, and is quite obsolete, one of the class of coal-eaters and quite useless in modern warfare. Why oil earth £161,000 should be spent on this ship as a signalling school passes my comprehension. It is a waste of public money. The second item is that of the "Highflyer," an even more venerable cruiser. She never bad a speed of more than 19½ knots, and I suppose could make 17 now. She has done great service as a flagship on the. East India Station for longer years than I have been a sailor. This ancient and obsolete ship is being repaired at a cost of £95,141. I would like to know what is the particular fancy service for which she is being fitted out. These are two examples which, I think, require some explanation. Many of the ships built for particular service in the late War, such as the "Kil" type of gunboat, and many of the sloops and motor launches will never see another shot fired. They are obsolete. It is recognised by the Board. Are we going on spending money on keeping up and repairing these ships? I am not saying that we should have a small Navy—quite the other way about. But the money could be better spent on modern up-to-date vessels.
§ Mr. LONGAnybody who is as industrious as the hon. and gallant Gentleman is, with the splendid volume of the Navy Estimates under his hand, can without much trouble devise a whole series of questions to keep us here till early morning. So far as these two ships are concerned, I have no reply to make. I do not 1485 know precisely the object for which they are intended. All I know is—and I am afraid it is the only answer I can give—that all these ships are most carefully investigated by my Naval advisers at the Admiralty. For the present I prefer to rely upon their advice and take their opinion than that of the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
Really that is the only possible course for a First Lord of the Admiralty, for he cannot pretend to know all the details of the repair work that is going on in all parts of the world. That would be an impossible position. If my hon. and gallant Friend really believes we are wasting money, if he has a good case, he knows perfectly well that he has only to see me at the Board of Admiralty, or write to me, and the case will be at once gone into.
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYI gave notice of this matter to the right hon. Gentleman, and I really must refute with indignation the suggestion that I am wasting the time of the House. This is a matter of a question of a quarter million of money. [Interruption.] These are two cruisers twenty years old. [Interruption.] I gave notice of my intention to raise the matter, and with all respect the reply of the right hon. Gentleman is unsatisfactory. [Interruption.]
Question put, "That a sum not exceeding £2,861,900 be granted for such Service.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 23; Noes, 173.
1487| Division No. 147.] | AYES. | [11.40 p.m. |
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke | Hirst, G, H. | Sitch, C. H. |
| Barnes. Major H. (Newcastle, E.) | Holmes, J. Stanley | Smith, W. (Wellingborough) |
| Bann, Captain W. (Leith) | Lunn, William | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Bromfield, W. | Malone, Col C. L. (Leyton, E.) | Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Brown, J. (Ayr and Bute) | Newbould, A. E. | Wood. Maj. Mackenzie (Aberdeen, C.) |
| Davison,.J. E. (Smethwick) | Richardson, R. (Houghton) | |
| Edwards, C. (Bedwellty) | Robertson, J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES. — Lt.- |
| Grundy, T. W. | Rose, Frank H. | Commander Kenworthy and Mr. |
| Hartshorn, V. | Short. A. (Wednesbury) | Swan. |
| NOES. | ||
| Addison, Rt. Non. Dr. Christopher | Curzon, Commander Viscount | Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) |
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) | Hilder, Lt.-Colonel F. |
| Allen, Colonel William James | Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) | Hinds, John |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Davies, Sir Joseph (Crewe) | Hope. James Fitzalen (Sheffield) |
| Astor, Viscountess | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hope, Lt.-Cot. Sir J. (Midlothian) |
| Atkey, A. R. | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington) | Hope, John Deans (Berwick) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Davies, T. (Cirencester) | Hopkins, J. W. W. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander H. | Howard, Major S. G. |
| Bell, Lt.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) | Dixon, Captain H. | Hudson, R. M. |
| Bonn, Com. Ian Hamilton (G'nwich) | Dockrell, Sir M. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Bentinck, Lt.-Col. Lord H. Cavendish | Doyle, N. Grattan | Inskip, T. W. H. |
| Betterton, H. B. | Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) | Jephcott, A. R. |
| Bird, Alfred | Elliot, Captain W. E. (Lanark) | Jones, Sir Edgar H. (Merthyr Tydvil |
| Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F. | Elliott, Lt.-Cot. Sir G. (Islington, W.) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith | Eyres-Monsell, Commander | Jones,.J. Towyn (Carmarthen) |
| Bramsdon, Sir T. | Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Kerr-Smiley, Major P. |
| Breese, Major C. E. | Forrest, W. | Lane-Fox, Major G. R. |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Foxcroft, Captain C. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Boner (Glasgow) |
| Brittain, Sir Harry E. | Fraser, Major Sir Keith | Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ. Wales) |
| Broad, Thomas Tucker | Gange, E. S. | Lewis, T. A. (Pontypridd, Glam.) |
| Bruton, Sir J. | Ganzoni, Captain F. C. | Lister, Sir R. Ashton |
| Buchanan. Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. | Gardiner, J. (Perth) | Locker-Lampsan, G. (Wood Green) |
| Buckley, Lt.-Colonel A. | Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir A. C. (Bas'gst'ke) | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Hunt'don) |
| Burdon, Col. Rowland | Gibbs, Colonel John Abraham | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Burn, T. H. (Belfast) | Gilbert, James Daniel | Lorden, John William |
| Carr, W. T. | Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John | Loseby, Captain C. E. |
| Casey, T. W. | Glyn, Major R. | Lowe, Sir F. W. |
| Cayzer, Major H. R. | Goff, Sir Park | Lynn, R. J. |
| Chadwick. R. Burton | Greame, Major P. Lloyd | M'Guffin, Samuel |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.A. (Birm., W.) | Green, J. F. (Leicester) | M'Laren, R. (Lanark, N.) |
| Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) | Greene, Lt.-Col. W. (Hackney, N.) | Macmaster, Donald |
| Chilcott, Lieut.-Com. H. W. S. | Gregory, Holman | McMicking, Major Gilbert |
| Child, Brig.-General Sir Hill | Gretton, Colonel John | Macnamara, Rt. Han. Dr. T. J. |
| Clough, R. | Guinness, Lt.-Col, Hon. W. E.(B. St. E.) | Maddocks, Henry |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward F. | Gwynne, R. S. | Mitchell, William Lane- |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hallwood, A. | Moles, Thomas |
| Cope, Major W. (Glamorgan) | Hanna, G. B. | Moore, Maj.-Gen. Sir Newton J. |
| Courthope, Major George Loyd | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds.) | Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish University) | Harris, Sir H. P. (Paddington, S.) | Morden, Colonel H. Grant |
| Cozens-Hardy, Hen. W. H. | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. | |
| Mosley, Oswald | Rodger, A. K. | Sugden, Lieut. W. H. |
| Murray, Hon. G. (St. Reilex) | Rogers, Sir Hallowell | Sutherland. Sir William |
| Murray, William (Dumfries) | Roundell. Lt.-Colonel R. F. | Sykes, Sir C. (Huddersfield) |
| Nail, Major Joseph | Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund | Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) |
| Neal, Arthur | Samuel, S. (Wandsworth, Putney) | Taylor, J. (Dumbarton) |
| Nelson, R. F. W. R. | Sanders, Colonel Robert Arthur | Terrell, Capt. R. (Henley, Oxford) |
| Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Sassoon, Sir Philip A. G. D. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.) |
| Parker, James | Scott, A. M. (Glas., Bridgeton) | Thorpe, Captain John Henry |
| Parry, Lt.-Colonel Thomas Henry | Seager, Sir William | Townley, Maximilian G. |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike | Seddon, James | Walters, Sir John Tudor |
| Perkins, Walter Frank | Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon, John | Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. |
| Pickering, Col. Emil W. | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | Wheler, Colonel Granville C. H. |
| Pinkham, Lt.-Colonel Charles | Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander | whale. Sir William |
| Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. (Preston) | Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) |
| Pratt, John William | Steel, Major S. Strang | Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H. |
| Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. | Stephenson, Colonel H. K. | Wood, Major Hon. E. (Ripon) |
| Haw, Lt.-Colonel Dr. N. | Stewart, Gershom | |
| Remer, J. B. | Strauss, Edward Anthony | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain |
| Robinson, T. (Stretford, Lancs.) | Sturrock, J. Long- | Guest and Lord E. Talbot. |
Resolution reported,
That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the better housing of the people, to authorise the acquisition of land for the development of garden cities or for the purpose of town-planning schemes, and to make further provision with respect to the borrowing powers of public authorities and bodies and with respect to the
1497
securities issued by them, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of expenses incurred by any Government Department—
Resolution agreed to.