66. Major MALONEasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the finding of the court-martial in the case of Captain O'Donnell, he is prepared to make suitable reparation to that gentleman for the ordeal he had to undergo and for the treatment received before trial; and is he prepared to admonish Lieutenant Chambers for bringing unfounded charges against Captain O'Donnell?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLCaptain O'Donnell was originally arrested by the military authorities in Ireland on charges which subsequently formed the subject of court-martial proceedings. As he was an Australian officer, the Australian military authorities, in accordance with the usual 221 practice, took him over from the British military authorities, and from that moment the War Office were not concerned in his disposal. The decision to try him by court-martial was taken by the Australian military authorities. I am not prepared to admit that because a court-martial finds an accused person not guilty of the charge there is a case for reparation. I am aware that there have been suggestions that the arrest and detention of Captain O'Donnell have not been conducted in accordance with the Army Act and Rules of Procedure. I am making inquiry into these suggestions in so far as they relate to the period during which he was in the custody of the British military authorities, but, from the reports now before me, it is clear that his arrest and detention were carried out strictly in accordance with the law. In regard to the latter part of the question, I am not pre-pared to admit that because the proceedings of a court-martial resulted in an acquittal for that reason alone the charges which may have formed the subject of proceedings can be deemed to have been unfounded.
§ Mr. DEVLINWhen this gallant and reverend gentleman was arrested was he dragged to Dublin, thrown into a cold and dirty cell, surrounded by soldiers with rifles, and treated with the greatest possible indignity before he was tried at all?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI have said that I am inquiring into the facts as to whether the Rules of Procedure under the Army Act were strictly enforced with regard to his treatment.
§ Captain WEDGWOOD BENNDo we understand from that answer that the inquiry promised yesterday is also to proceed?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLAs far as I am aware, the only inquiry consists in asking the various authorities what took place.
§ Captain BENNWhat steps are going to be taken with regard to the witnesses who gave evidence that was proved not to be true?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIf witnesses who give evidence in support of charges against parties who are afterwards acquitted of those charges are to be held guilty of some offence in regard to which they themselves are to be held to be the subject of inquiry, it would be perfectly impossible to carry on the administration of justice.
§ Mr. DEVLINAm I to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that, notwithstanding all the indignity and humiliation brought upon this gallant and reverend gentleman for an offence which he never committed, the right hon. Gentleman, who is the custodian of the honour and dignity of the Army, is not ready to repudiate and offer reparation for it?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI do not think I am called upon to do anything except inquire into the conditions under which this officer was arrested, and what happened while he was in charge of the British military authorities. After that, in accordance with the regular practice, he passed under the jurisdiction of the Australian authorities.
§ Mr. DEVLINMay I ask the leave of the House to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the humiliation and indignity placed upon a gallant Australian officer who was proved not guilty by a military tribunal?
§ Mr. DEVLIN (later)I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House to call attention to a matter of definite and urgent public importance, namely, the arrest of the Rev. Father O'Donnell of the Australian Forces, and the refusal of the Government after his acquittal to take the necessary steps to deal with those who are responsible for his arrest and subsequent ill-treatment.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member raised exactly the same question yesterday. I then said that. I thought that until the House was in possession of the facts it would not be proper for me to accept a Motion of this kind. I do not think that to-day matters have advanced any further. Yesterday the Financial Secretary to the War Office announced that he would institute an inquiry. To-day the Secretary of State for War has said that he has instituted the inquiry, and as soon as the results of that inquiry are to hand I shall be quite prepared to consider any Motion which the hon. Member may desire to make.
§ Mr. DEVLINYesterday the Leader of the House, I think it was, gave me an assurance that this was so important a matter, not only to the Army, but to the great Australian Commonwealth, that the Government could not take any action in the House until they would have a report. Then the right hon. Gentleman, the 223 Minister for War came to the House this afternoon without notice to me who put the question yesterday and read a long report, a considered statement of the whole case in which he not only gave details of the things themselves, but drew his own conclusions. I take it, therefore, that the report which you considered necessary for presentation to the House before you would allow discussion is contained in the statement which was made by the right hon. Gentleman, and therefore I claim the right, about the last right that is left to any Irishman in this House or elsewhere, for the one, or two, or three Members from Ireland who are still left in this House to have an opportunity not only of discussing this matter, but of erasing this stigma which has been put upon this gallant Australian officer who represents the heroes of our Australian Forces abroad, and I say that it would be, in my judgment, a scandal before the whole world if the House of Commons is not given now an opportunity of dealing with this question.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLMay I explain—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Secretary of State for War has not had the Report. He has asked for the Report. He has given instructions that it shall be made, and when it is received and he is informed of the particulars involved in this matter, I have no doubt that the right Eon. Gentleman will communicate the facts to the House, and it would then be for the hon. Member and the House to take such action as they think fit.
§ Captain BENNOn the point of urgency may I submit, in view of the fact that much notice has been taken of this case in Australia, where this officer was very prominent in advocating conscription on Australia entering into the War, and, in view of the impending Australian elections, that it would be well for this House to have an opportunity of expressing its view in order that no misconception should arise in Australia as to the way in which we intend to treat people who come over to fight for us.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIt may be very desirable that the House should express its views, but before this House can express its views it must know the facts.
§ Mr. DEVLINI must press this point. The right hon. Gentleman did not come 224 to the House to-day and say that the Report was not forthcoming, but we had his answer.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI am informed as to what took place in this country, but with regard to what took place in Ireland am not informed, because the advices from Ireland have not yet been received.
§ Captain BENNWould it not he possible for the right. hon. Gentleman to secure from Ireland a report by telegraph between now and this evening giving all the facts that are material, inasmuch as this gallant officer was arrested and imprisoned for one week at least a month ago?
§ Mr. SPEAKERNo, because the Whole House would wish to know what the facts are. I cannot grant an Adjournment Motion and then have hon. Members say. We want the facts.
§ Mr. DEVLINI am sorry for pressing this matter, but with all respect it is of sufficient importance. But the facts are known to everybody in the United Kingdom, to whoever reads the newspapers, and I wish to bring these facts before the House. If a Minister has not the facts in his possession now, am I to be told that a matter dealing not only with the personal liberty of a gallant soldier, but the dignity and honour of one of our most powerful Colonies is not to be brought before this House? The right hon. Gentleman tells us that he knows nothing about the facts which are known to everybody in the United Kingdom. and, on the contrary, he says that this thing occurred in Ireland and he is not responsible. The right hon. Gentleman is Minister for War and he is responsible for the Forces in Ireland. [HON. eras "Speech!"]
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI cannot take responsibility for the action taken by the War Office authorities in Ireland. I am responsible for the action taken by the War Office here.
§ Mr. DEVLINI am glad to see so contemptuous a repudiation here. I have cables about this matter from Australia, and the whole of Australia wishes the House of Commons to give utterance to some sentiment of resentment at the treatment of an officer, not arrested and humiliated, but arrested, humiliated and acquitted; and if the House of Commons, which can on occasions rise to higher things, allows these things to happen 225 without repudiation, without reprobation, then you are out to do what everybody believes you are out to do—to drive Ireland into a state of semi-madness and to insult every Irishman.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI would remind the hon. Member that he is speaking to a point of Order and that these statements are not relevant to that. If the hon. Gentleman presses me I am prepared to say that the matter is not a "definite matter" until we know the facts, and if it is not a "definite matter" then he is not entitled to break into the ordinary proceedings of the House in order to raise it. As soon as it becomes a "definite matter" and the facts are known then the whole circumstances will be made known to the House and it will be open to him to raise the question.
§ Mr. DEVLINI am much obliged for the courtesy which you have shown me, and I desire to ask only another question from the right hon. Gentleman. I want to know when he will be in a position to give us all the facts so that the House may be in a position to discuss the matter?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI am perfectly ready to discuss this matter. My only desire is to make sure that any case. I make is based upon the latest information that can be obtained from the country where these things took place. I cannot say exactly when this information will be received, but I should think that in the course of the present week I shall be fully informed. If I shall be informed to-morrow, I will let my hon. Friend know, and I will make a statement on the subject by the leave of the House.