HC Deb 01 August 1919 vol 118 cc2468-71

(1) It shall be lawful for the Secretary of State to make regulations as to the government, pay, allowances, pensions, clothing, expenses and conditions of service of the members of all police forces within England and Wales, and every police authority shall comply with the regulations so made.

(2) A draft of any regulations proposed to be so made as aforesaid shall, except where the matter is certified by the Secretary of State to be one of urgency, be submitted to a council, consisting of the central committee or a deputation from the central committee of the Police Federation and representatives of the chief officers of police and police authorities selected for the purpose by the Secretary of State, and before making the regulations the Secretary of State shall consider any representations made by such council.

Mr. A. SHORT

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the word "government" ["regulations as to the government "].

2.0 P.M.

It seems to me that the object of the first portion of the Clause is to secure some measure of standardisation of the rules and regulations appertaining to the police force. I can well see the desirability of such standardisation in so far as pay and allowances are concerned, but when we come to government, a very wide meaning can be attached to the word and a good deal of elasticity can be put into its interpretation. "Government" mean3 executive power. Hitherto, if I understand the matter aright, watch committees of local authorities have possessed certain powers in connection with the government of the local police force, and it appears to me that under this Clause, with the word "government," the Home Secretary is going to supersede entirely the watch committees. He is going to cut right across their work and is going to take out of their hands all opportunity of governing the local police forces. That is giving the Home Office too great power in view of the excellent services which have been rendered by these watch committees.

Mr. T. GRIFFITHS

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. SHORTT

I hope the hon. Member will not press the Amendment. It really is just as important that you should standardise what government involves as that you should standardise conditions and pay. I have felt for some time that it would be wise if there were a disciplinary code amongst the police so that you would not get individual cases of harshness and so on as you do at present. Regulations would be necessary for that. The methods of promotion ought to be standardised. Promotion from one force to another, from a smaller to a larger force, could only be done by regulations from a central source. The inclusion of the word "government" does not in the least take the real executive power out of the hands of the watch committees or local authorities but merely gives power to make regulations in order to standardise the conditions. I could give many other instances, but I think it will be clear to hon. Members that this is not an Amendment that they would care to press. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. FORESTIER-WALKER

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words except where the matter is certified by the Secretary of State to be one of urgency.

Mr. SHORTT

I accept.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. FORESTIER-WALKER

I beg to move, after the word "submitted" ["be submitted to a council"], to insert the words "to the police authorities and."

My object in putting in these words is that the standing joint committee or the watch committee should have some say in the matter. Under this Clause it goes to a council which consists of members of the Police Federation, representatives of the chief officers of the police, and the police authorities, a sort of joint council who are to be consulted. But we claim that the county councils also ought to be consulted. They are the people who carry on the police. They are responsible and ought to be consulted before anything definite is done. They are quite prepared, after they have been consultd, to join with anyone else to consider the matter, but they think the Home Secretary ought to consult them or, at any rate, let them know about it before any fresh regulations are submitted.

Major COLFOX

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. SHORTT

The hon. Member has a further Amendment on the Paper to insert in Sub-Section (2), after the word "State" ["Secretary of State"], the words "after consultation with the county councils' associations and the association of municipal corporations." I should be prepared to accept those words. The object is to have a body which is representative of the opinions of the Government and of the other authorities, such as the watch committees in the boroughs and the standing joint committees in the counties. If the associations have a voice in the choice of their representatives that would probably meet what my hon. Friend has in view. The Amendment which he has now proposed would be quite impossible, because it would mean that you would have to consult not one single body, representative of all the authorities, but each police authority all over the country, which would be a very heavy and cumbersome matter. If the words which I suggest, which are the hon. Member's own words, are inserted, they would meet all that he desires.

Sir J. REMNANT

The Home Secretary should have authority in cases of emergency to immediately put new Regulations into force. If he is going to attempt to have all these extra additional bodies consulted before he can meet a case of emergency, difficulties are certain to arise, and I hope, as the right hon. Gentleman has shown himself to be firm when he is satisfied that the case is just he will be firm in resisting Amendments which are not necessary.

Mr. FORESTIER-WALKER

I should be glad to accept the suggestion of the Home Secretary, although I would have preferred that he should have accepted this Amendment, because it gives me more of what I wanted. Under the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. F0REST1ER-WALKER

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "State" ["Secretary of State"], to insert the words after consultation with the county councils' associations and the association of municipal corporations. These bodies are representative of the watch committees and the standing joint committees, more or less.

Major COLFOX

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir J. REMNANT

I should like to know from the Secretary of State how long he imagines it is going to take, in the case of emergency, to consult all these extra outside bodies. How does he propose to deal with a case such as that which happened last night?

Mr. SHORTT

It is quite evident that my hon. Friend does not appreciate the meaning of this Amendment. A council will be set up and the council will always be there. It will be there to consult immediately in case of emergency. This Amendment simply deals with the original constitution of the council. It provides for consultation as the first step in choosing the representatives who will form the council. Once the representatives are chosen, there is no further consultation required of any sort or description. It is merely a question of consulting them once in order that they may choose their representatives. When the representatives have been chosen and they form the council, they can be called upon at any moment in case of an emergency or otherwise.

Sir J. REMNANT

Then why does the right hon. Gentleman have the words in the Clause, "where the matter is certified by the Secretary of State to be one of urgency"?

Mr. SHORTT

The reason is, that I cannot for the life of me imagine any case of emergency which would affect the question of drawing up Regulations. Therefore I accept it.

Amendment agreed to.