CLAUSE 7.—(Amendment of s. 114 of Army Act with Respect to Lists of Horses.) (Hansard, 2 April 1919)

§ Mr. FORSTER
I beg to move, at the end of paragraph (iii.) to insert the words: (4) If any officer is obstructed in the exercise of his powers under this Section, a Justice of the Peace may, if satisfied by information on oath that the officer has been so obstructed, issue a search warrant authorising the constable named therein, accompanied by the officer, to enter the premises in respect of which the conviction took place, at any time between six o'clock in the morning and nine o'clock in the evening, and inspect any carriages or animals that may be found therein. When debating the Bill on Second Reading, we were very anxious that there should be no ground for the apprehension that officers who have to carry out duties under the Bill could force themselves in an undesirable way into the premises of those whose animals they have to inspect, and it is really to adopt largely the suggestion made by my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Ashley) that we move this Amendment. Suppose, for instance, an inspecting officer went to inspect premises against the wishes of the owner, and the owner wished him either to discontinue or not to commence his inspection, then the officer would go to the magistrate and he would get a search 1250 warrant, and, accompanied by a representative of the civil power, he would make his inspection. I hope that my hon. and gallant Friend will feel that we are doing something to meet the point which he raised on the Second Reading of the Bill.

§ Colonel ASHLEY
The point which I raised on the Second Reading was this, that in peace time the civil, and not the military power, should be the ruling power in this country. Before this Amendment was moved, it meant that the Army Council could authorise any Army officer to enter anyone's stables and outbuildings, and take a census of his carriages and horses, and I thought it quite wrong that the Englishman's castle, the home, should be invaded by any authority other than the civil power. Therefore, I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has met the point by providing that the representative of the military power should come to the magistrate and get authority, and should make the inspection accompanied by a constable. Nobody wants to stop the Army Council getting a census of horses, or doing anything necessary for the safety of the realm, but in peace time this should be done under the authority of the civil power.

§ Earl WINTERTON
I do not know what my right hon. Friend says between the hours of six in the morning and nine at night. I cannot fancy an inspector of remounts wanting to inspect horses at 6.30 in the evening.

§ Mr. FORSTER
In summer time.

§ Earl WINTERTON
It should be made as convenient as possible for the owner of the horses. It would be more convenient if it were made the time of day at which horses are ordinarily inspected.

§ Mr. FORSTER
There are the present hours.

§ Earl WINTERTON
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman gave any explanation on the Second Reading, but I wish to ask what the Government have in view in that portion of the new Clause, in Sub-section (1), which says, "giving with respect to every horse such details as may be prescribed," and which also calls on the owner to "afford all reason- 1251 able facilities for enabling any horse belonging to him or kept on his premises to be inspected and examined as and when required by the said authority." As regards this regulation, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give to the Committee some idea of the questions which the horse owner may be expected to have to answer. I presume what it is desired to obtain under the Clause is a simple statement from the horse owner of the class of horse he possesses, whether it is suitable for heavy or light draft work, and whether it is suitable for riding purposes. Then as to the question of the inspection and examination of the horses, I wish to put this point: There is a good deal of difference in the country as to the cruelty of the practice of testing a horse's wind by means of the stick test. I hope it is not suggested that the form the examination will take will include the use of that test. Is it intended under the Bill that the inspector of remounts shall go to the various stations in the country and test each horse in the way it is tested when it is being examined and inspected for Government purposes? I want to know what form the examination is to take. Is it to be a full veterinary examination? What is the meaning of the words "inspected and examined"?

§ Mr. FORSTER
I confess my Noble Friend has put to me certain points on questions of detail which I am not in a position to answer. I cannot say precisely what test will be employed by the inspectors, but I think my Noble Friend will probably have had sufficient experience of the Remount Department of the War Office and their inspectors to know that nothing undesirable in the way of inspection is to be feared under this Bill. Under the scheme as contemplated the actual census will be compiled by the Board of Trade, which during the course of the War has been carrying out the duty and has done it extremely well. It is proposed to ask the Board of Trade to continue that work.

§ Earl WINTERTON
That is what I want to know. As far as I can see, horse owners have no kind of security that someone will not be sent down by the Board of Trade who is not a veterinary surgeon or qualified to make this examination.

§ Mr. FORSTER
Perhaps I did not make myself clear to the Noble Lord. The 1252 census will be compiled by the Board of Trade, but the inspection will be made by an inspecting officer from the War Office.

§ Earl WINTERTON
By someone from the Remount Department who is competent to inspect horses?

§ Mr. FORSTER
Yes.