§ 15. Mr. MacVEAGHasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will state the speed of the "Leinster" and the speed of the average destroyer in fair weather and in rough weather, respectively; whether he will also state if the steamers plying between Larne and Stranraer have been protected by the Admiralty; and, if so, why protection was refused to the City of Dublin steamers?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAIt would be difficult to give precise comparative statements as suggested by my hon. Friend. "Lloyd's Register" gives the speed of the "Leinster" as 23½ knots. This speed represents the maximum effort under the very best conditions—that is, steaming trial conditions. Generally speaking, at least a knot and a half may be deducted for the speed which the vessel would average during the passage in fine weather, but, of course, under stress of weather, the speed would be further reduced. Though I cannot give the precise comparison, I can assure my hon. Friend that heavy weather would affect far more seriously the speed of the average 1441 destroyer than a vessel of the class of the "Leinster." In regard to the second part of the question, all mercantile traffic, including the Dublin-Holyhead service, has been given protection by the antisubmarine measures in force.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHThe right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question whether the steamers plying between Larne and Stranraer have been specially protected by the Admiralty.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAYes; if the hon. Member will consider he will see that there are very vital interests by that route.
§ Mr. JOYCEIs it not a fact that the mail steamers from Kingstown to Holy-head have been convoyed by destroyers many months ago in heavy weather, and that these destroyers—they were American destroyers—last January were able to work in half circles round about the bow of the mail steamer, and had a great deal more speed than the mail steamer itself? I know that of my own knowledge.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAThat may be so. Needless to say, we are all glad to see my hon. Friend here.
§ Mr. HOUSTONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the inquest in Dublin the managing director of the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company, the owners of the "Leinster," gave evidence that the maximum speed was 21 knots, and that that evidence was suppressed by the Censor?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAI gave the figures from "Lloyd's Register," and I explained what that means.
Sir SHIRLEY BENNIs it not a fact that the steamers plying between Larne and Stranraar were not protected except in extremely fine weather?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAThere are some ports to which it is necessary to devote more attention than other ports. It is purely a naval consideration. I shall be glad to tell the hon. Member why.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHWhat is the speed of a destroyer?
§ Mr. MacVEAGHIt is not a debating point. It arises out of part of the question which he has not answered. What is the average speed of a destroyer?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAAs I said at the outset, it is difficult to say what is the average speed of a destroyer.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHWhat is the average speed of a destroyer? He has given the average speed of a steamer and not of a destroyer.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHIt is not. Everybody knows but the Admiralty.
§ 23. Mr. HOUSTONasked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that he was misinformed by his technical advisers as to the speed of the mail steamer "Leinster" and as to the time she was torpedoed and sent out her S.O.S. call; and whether her S.O.S. call was so faint, owing to the explosion, that it did not reach Kingstown, but was picked up by the ss. "Ulster," at that time about three miles distant, at 9.50 a.m., and immediately transmitted to Kingstown?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAAs regards the speed of the "Leinster," there is no question of misinformation by technical advisers. I gave the Lloyd's figure in reply to my hon. Friend on 15th October, and gave it correctly. As regards the moment of the torpedo attack, the Senior Naval Officer, Kingstown, received 9.25 a.m. as the time from a survivor, and reported the same to us. It appears that this was inaccurate. Further reports go to show that the first torpedo struck the "Leinster" at 9.30 a.m. A corrupt message was received between 9.40 and 9.44 by Wireless Kingstown and the complete message was received at Kingstown at 9.50, both these messages being made by the "Ulster." It appears very doubtful if the S.O.S. signal, which the "Leinster" apparently attempted to transmit, was ever received coherently by any vessel, the presumption being that the "Leinster's" wireless was put out of action by the torpedo attack. As was stated above, the "Ulster" transmitted the message between 9.40 and 9.44 and again at 9.50. It was not till the last-named time that the message could be understood.
§ Mr. HOUSTONIs the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the speed given in Lloyd's book is simply the trial trip speed, and that the actual speed is, I think, 21 knots?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAI have explained what is meant in my reply to the hon. Member for South Down.
§ Mr. JOYCEIs it not a fact that not alone did the "Ulster" receive a wireless call, a weak call, from the "Leinster" that morning, but that a number of people on board the "Ulster" saw the actual explosion of the first torpedo that struck the "Leinster," and were it not for the fact that there was a heavy storm of wind and rain sweeping over the sea they would have seen the explosion of the second torpedo, and the end of the terrible catastrophe?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAThat may very well be, but I have not heard that before.
§ Mr. LOUGHIs there any reason why the "Ulster" did not go to the assistance of the "Leinster" when it was being torpedoed?
§ 24. Mr. HOUSTONasked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has now made arrangements for the ss. "Ulster" to be escorted; and is he aware that on Thursday last the ss. "Ulster" was accompanied by destroyers which had no difficulty in keeping up with her?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAAs stated in answers to previous questions, escorts are provided when conditions permit, one of the conditions being the state of the sea. On the date in question, weather and other conditions enabled escort to be given.
§ Mr. HOUSTONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that a torpedo was fired at the "Ulster" last week from an enemy submarine?
§ Dr. MACNAMARAI am not aware of that.
§ Mr. HOUSTONIt is a fact.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAI will make inquiry.
§ 52. Mr. HOUSTONasked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange for an independent tribunal, consisting of at least one judge of His Majesty's High Court and several independent members, to investigate the circumstances in connection with the loss of the mail steamer "Leinster"?
§ Sir G. CAVEThe Government are not prepared to go beyond the steps indicated in reply to previous questions, and are not, therefore, prepared to adopt the suggestion contained in the question.
§ Mr. HOUSTONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that because of what transpired at the inquest in Dublin and other matters in connection with the sinking of the "Leinster" the public will not be satisfied with a Departmental inquiry, and that there is a strong demand by the public for an independent tribunal?
§ Sir G. CAVEI do not know about that, but I have given a full answer to the question.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHWill the right hon. Gentleman represent to the Leader of the House that there was a direct conflict of testimony between witnesses at the inquest and statements made on behalf of the Admiralty, and call his attention to the fact that the reports of the inquest have been suppressed and censored by the public Censor; and having regard to those facts will he consider the advisability of having a searching and independent public investigation into the whole matter?
§ Sir G. CAVEMy answer, I think, covers all that.
§ Mr. FLAVINIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is commonly believed that it was known that a submarine was in the vicinity for two or three days before the "Leinster" was sunk, and why was no protection given to the mail boat which had a large number of military as well as civilians on board?