HC Deb 22 October 1918 vol 110 cc735-42

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 13th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Mr. FIELD

I desire to say a few words on the subject of the Order relating to restrictions on the importation of fat cattle from Ireland. I would not venture to trouble the House but for the fact that I have received a resolution by telegraph from the Irish Cattle and Stockowners' Association to the effect that the proposal made by the Food Controller for restricting the sale of Irish fat cattle for the next two or three weeks cannot be acceded to by that association. I also received a telegram from the South of Ireland Cattle Dealers' Association, as follows:— Embargo on Irish fat stock without warning, ruinous to trade, and causing enormous losses. Over 1,000 fat cattle belonging to southern dealers, bought for shipment, in compliance with Government grading system, held up in Dublin in starving condition; deteriorating rapidly into stores. They are awaiting shipment for ten days and over. The South of Ireland Cattle Trade Association request permission to ship these cattle under the circumstancs in priority to fresh arrivals at Dublin port. I want it to be understood that I raise this question in the interests of the consumers under the Food Controller, and I think the trade should be consulted before this serious step is taken. The trouble began before the time of the present Food Controller, when the price of cattle was fixed at 60s., and when it was lowered instead of being raised and the whole business turned upside down. The result has been that ever since there has been more or less fluctuation and uncertainty in the trade. The result of this action means that only 4,500 cattle and 7,000 sheep are to be permitted to be exported every week. In order to arrive at the logical steps or the correct course to be taken, I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that during the last three months of last year the average exports per week were 12,000 sheep and 12,375, cattle, which means cutting down cattle to one-third and sheep to nearly half. The result of this is dislocation of the livestock trade, uncertainty of prices in fairs and markets, and uncertainty of supply and demand. The ultimate result will be a decrease in food production, which is exactly what you want to prevent. If I am credibly informed you were some thousands of sheep short a year ago, and if you reduce stock in Ireland it will be a serious matter for the people of this country. The Food Controller and the Department of Agriculture asked stock raisers and farmers in Ireland to increase food production. The Department of Agriculture particularly asked and requested increased production of beef and mutton. There was no regular agreement but it was certainly understood that the market would remain open, because it would be an extraordinary thing to ask the farmers and stock raisers to increase production if you intended to shut the market. I think that is a very logical way of putting the position. The limiting and restriction of the market was done, as I understand, in opposition to the voice and protests of the cattle traders' associations, and if I am correctly informed, the Department of Agriculture was against curtailing the exports. We have, then, the fact that those in the business and the Department of Agriculture in Ireland were against this step being taken by the Food Controller in England. I look upon this action as more or less a breach of faith. It is an extraordinary thing to happen at this season since we have an enormous export during the last few months, and it is, if not a want of common sense, at least a want of prevision not to make some arrangement for a situation of that kind. This glut is due to imports of dead meat, and those imports have helped to increase the profits of the American Meat Trust. I know that this is not an occasion in which I can enter into the merits of that question, but let me mention four of the big packers of that meat have during 1915–16–17 pocketed higher profits to the amount of 178 millions of dollars than the average of the year before. Now we are told that this glut all comes from the export of Irish cattle. Another extraordinary business proceeding on the part of the Food Controller is that he puts up the price 2d. per lb., and, notwithstanding the differences of value, they charge the same price for frozen meat as they do for fresh. I think there must be a bit of profiteering in that, and I would like to have an opportunity of glancing at the accounts to see how it is possible that frozen meat, which is imported at about a half or a third of the price, can be sold for the same price—how they can reconcile to their consciences selling an inferior article at the same price as a good article. If there is a loss on the transaction, why should the Irish live-stock trade have to suffer? I have sympathy with the British feeders, but sympathy is the cure by Government for all kinds of complaints, particularly for Irish complaints, and I do not see why the Irish cattle trade should hare to suffer. I want to point out that the live-stock industry in Great Britain is nothing like as important as it is in Ireland. It is our staple product, and if you injure the live-stock industry in Ireland it rebounds upon Great Britain, because you want meat and you want stores. I thought the object of the Food Controller was to encourage home produce, and meat and milk are two essential foods. I suggest that the way to meet the difficulty would be to increase the rations in England at the present time, and from my practical knowledge I assert unhesitatingly, without fear of contradiction, that keeping fat cattle and sheep is a wasteful policy, and the proposition of increasing prices later on will not meet the present position. The Order ought to be withdrawn or modified, and consultation ought to be taken with the trade as to the best method to avoid friction and carry on the business and so increase production, and in that way help the Food Controller.

Mr. DILLON

I wish to say a very few words in support of what has fallen from my hon. Friend. This is an extremely important and urgent matter, and the chief evil in this Order is that without due notice the entire trade in Ireland is dislocated and heavy loss, terrible loss, inflicted on those engaged in it. It has the result of damming up a stream and that all the tributary streams are dammed up, because this loss is immediately reflected in an exaggerated way at the fairs and markets throughout the country. The result is that you profoundly discourage the producers of food throughout the whole of Ireland. That I consider the gravest fault that is to be complained of in the method of procedure of the Food Controller. Of course, we complain; we are bound to complain of the enormous loss which has been inflicted on these men without due notice. If the men had got sufficient notice that this Order was about to be issued, then the condition of things that has been described would not have arisen, and although the Order is bad policy, in my opinion it would not have inflicted such cruel loss. One of the worst features of this Order is the feeling which it has spread amongst producers of cattle and live stock in Ireland that you cannot trust the Government at all, and that all their promises and inducements held out to a particular industry are to be broken. The effect will inevitably be to discourage production and prevent men investing their capital in increasing the amount of food in the country. Now that is the result of the continuation of repetition of the enormous blunder that was made by the Food Controller last year. He was warned by every skilled expert in the business here and in Ireland that that policy would produce enormous loss and what was the result? During several months last year we were consuming more meat than was ever consumed in our history and then when Christmas came we were face to face with a meat famine. It was prophesied by every skilled trader in the country. This year the blunder has been committed because you issued this Order. The moment the Order was issued you limited the meat ration and reduced the consumption of the whole country. The whole country realising the quantity of frozen meat in storage reduced enormously their demand for fat cattle, and at the same time you came to the conclusion to completely deprive the dealers of the feeding-stuffs necessary in order to keep cattle fat and carry them on to the Christmas market, and therefore in all ways you paralyse the trade, and it stands to reason, if it was really necessary, though I doubt it—I think there is a good deal to be said against that argument—but suppose it was necessary to so enormously reduce the supply of feeding-stuffs you ought to take that into consideration and either give them longer notice or considerably modify the stringency of those rules reducing the consumption so that the markets would not be glutted and the absurd spectacle presented of a people with reduced rations, whilst the cattle is being driven back from the markets and their owners have not the foodstuffs to keep them fat, and the flow of cattle is interrupted with ruinous loss and discouragement to the trade. It really appears to me that the action of the Food Controller illustrates the warning which I ventured to give when the whole system was set up, namely, that the Food Controller has power apparently to override and overcome the Department of Agriculture in this country. That has happened over and over again, and in every case that I can remember the Department of Agriculture has proved to be right and the Food Controller wrong. That is quite natural, because the Department of Agriculture is far more skilled in these matters than the Food Controller.

Then we were told the other day that the pig policy of the War Cabinet has been totally altered, and that they are now importing large quantities of American bacon and depriving the home market of the necessary food. Pigs have to be slaughtered or starved. I very much doubt whether the shipping has been put to the best public use. In the future the Government ought to give more ear and weight to the advice of the Department of Agriculture—to those who are skilled in the industry of agriculture, and the farmers, and whenever they are convinced, after full consideration, of the necessity for stringent Orders of this character, the Government ought to give to those engaged in the business ample notice of their intention, and carefully to consider—not only so, but to convince the public that they have carefully considered and given full weight to the advice and recommendations they are sure to receive—before they inflict their stringent Orders on the trade. Whatever may be said in favour of this Order, there can be no doubt that the hardship has been cruelly aggravated by its suddenness and want of warning in issuing it.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of FOOD (Major Astor)

I have no complaint whatever against the hon. Gentlemen opposite for raising this question this evening or for the manner in which they have brought it forward. I can only repeat the regret I expressed the other night that a matter so vitally affecting agriculture and food production should have had to be discussed at the tail-end of a day. There are only a few minutes, and therefore I will try to avoid covering the points I dealt with the other evening, because I want rather to elaborate and continue what I was saying then. I want to make it quite clear that my right hon. Friend the Food Controller, and I, and all at the Ministry of Food, thoroughly appreciate and realise the difficult position of cattle owners and the inconvenience to which they are put at the present time. I myself have had my own cattle turned back from the market, and therefore I have a personal sympathy with those who have had their cattle turned back.

Mr. FLAVIN

You can afford to lose the money; small farmers cannot.

Major ASTOR

It is equally irritating.

Mr. FLAVIN

I agree.

Major ASTOR

Another point just made was that we did not give adequate warning of our action. The warning which we have been able to give has been equally short for all. Unfortunately, we were not able to tell English cattle owners that their cattle could not be taken in the numbers in which they were coming forward. We have had to apply the same treatment to all cattle whether they came from England or from Ireland. As regards length of notice, we discussed this question with the Central Agricultural Advisory Council, on which Irish farmers were represented. We interviewed the Irish Board of Agriculture two or three weeks ago, and I understand that some time ago they had a discussion with the Irish Cattle Traders' Association. I want to tell hon. Members of the practical steps which the Food Controller proposes to take. He quite realises that men who have cattle now ripe for slaughter will be put to considerable inconvenience and expense if they are asked to keep their cattle for several months more. He quite realises that if they keep those cattle on their farms they will do so to meet the general convenience of the Government and public, and therefore he wants to deal as fairly as possible with them. Further, he also encourages cattle owners to hold back their cattle, and not to put them on the market now, but to let us have them in the early months of 1919—February, March, and April. We shall be badly in need of cattle in March, April, and May. In order to deal with this the Food Controller proposes to give an additional price for cattle later on in the year. He has already promised an increase in the price which was fixed a long time back. Now he proposes a further increase in order to meet the additional cost to which cattle-owners will be put. The actual owners of the cattle now ripe for slaughter will have to hold. If the present owners have not got the requisite feed, there are, and in Ireland, men who have got the feed. Only the other day, in the "Irish Times" of 11th October, I read the following statement: A peculiar feature of the situation in the Dublin market is that the feeders and the farmers for the last few weeks have been much in evidence here and have drawn largely upon the better cattle…. So that there are in Ireland men with feed who presumably will be prepared to feed and hold the cattle if they see an adequate prospect of adequate remuneration. The Food Controller hopes his project will not increase the prices to the consumer in view of the recent increase in the retail prices. The increases proposed will apply to first-grade cattle only. These additional prices will be given, of course, to English as well as Irish cattle owners. We propose to make these increases on a graduated scale following the normal course. The highest point will be reached in May when the price will be 85s. per live cwt.—that is to say, more than the original price announced, or 5s. more than the increase promised by the Food Controller a couple of months ago. That is the highest point. We shall begin increasing the price in December, when we shall give an additional 1s., or rather 2s., because we have already promised 1s.—that is to say, the price in December will be 77s.; and so it goes on. I need not give all the figures to-night, for they will be published tonight or to-morrow. They will go on increasing—77s. in December, 78s. in January, 80s. in February, 81s. in March, 83s. in April, 85s. in May, and 85s. in June. Then they begin to go down. The object of these increased prices is to remunerate the farmers for the additional expense which they will be put to in holding their stock, and it will also induce them to hold their stock and to bring them in later—in February, March, April, and May. I want to repeat what I said the other day. We fully appreciate the position in which the farmers are placed. We hope the proposals we make will help to meet some of the difficulties. If there are any further points which occur at any time, I can promise that they will receive sympathetic consideration and careful attention. We fully realise the importance to Ireland and to Great Britain of this live stock. The Food Controller is trying to conserve the live stock of the country. He does not want to do anything to prejudice the future position. Hon. Members opposite, I hope, will assist in explaining to people outside how the present situation has arisen and what he is doing to remedy it. I have been as frank as I could. I have given all the information I could in the time. I am certain that the farmers will respond like all other sections of the community and will put up with the inconvenience during the War just as all other classes, feeling that they will be contributing towards the successful prosecution of the War. If we could have avoided the present difficulties we should have done so, and we should be pleased at any time to consider all practical proposals which hon. Members may make.

It being Half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'clock.