§ It shall be lawful for His Majesty in Council by Order to establish an advisory council consisting, as to not less than two-thirds of the members, of persons qualified to represent the views of various bodies interested in education, for the purpose of advising the Department on educational matters referred to the advisory council by the Department, and the Department shall take into consideration any advice or representation submitted to them by the advisory council.
§ Mr. ADAMSONI beg to move to leave out the words "as to not less than two thirds of the members of persons qualified to represent the views of various bodies interested in education," and to insert instead thereof the words
of fourteen members, six being representatives of local education authorities, two of trade unions, two of the industrial co-operative societies of Scotland, two of employers of labour, and two of teachers.This Amendment is moved with the object of changing the composition of the advisory council. We want to make it more democratic than appears upon the Order Paper. I do not know that I quite understand what is meant by two-thirds of the members being qualified to represent the views of the various bodies interested in education. We think it would be better to have a council composed of a definite number of representatives drawn from various specified bodies as suggested in the Amendment. We feel that unless 207 some such arrangement as we suggest is embodied in the Bill that labour and the co-operative movement will stand very little chance of representation on such a body. Unless we have this representation it will be a distinct hardship for a very large section of the community. Consequently I beg to move.
§ 9.0 P.M.
§ Mr. MUNROThe Amendment which has just been proposed is one which the right hon. Gentleman proposed upstairs in Grand Committee. It resembles the Amendment which he proposed a little while ago in this House. Both here and upstairs, however, his Amendment has received, according to my recollection, very little support. This was not from the view that labour should not be properly represented upon the advisory council. Far from it! I think we all anticipate that labour may be represented upon the advisory council. That, however, is not the question before the House. The question before us is whether we are prepared at this stage to stereotype the representation on the council in the way suggested. The view taken upstairs was that it was highly undesirable so to do. It was indicated, for example, that the council would possibly include representatives of councils, of central institutions, of technical colleges, of schools of art, and many other such institutions. The House will observe that none of these institutions are mentioned in the Bill. In other words, it has been thought extremely undesirable to stereotype here and now the composition of this council as to the number and character of its representatives. That will be a matter for careful inquiry when the body comes to be constituted. I do not think that it would be desirable here and now that the House should do anything to decide, without full knowledge of the circumstances—and we cannot have full knowledge of those circumstances—that there should be so many representatives from various bodies on the council. It may be found that the course suggested is a very proper one. I do not, however, think it would be proper that this should be done until after very full consideration of the circumstances. I think that no rigid direction should be given by the House, which 208 cannot at the moment project itself into the position of knowing future conditions in this matter. Therefore for these reasons, which I do not desire to rehearse at length, because they were fully stated upstairs, I regret I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Amendment negatived.
Sir J. HOPEI beg to move to leave out the words "referred to the Advisory Council by the Department."
The effect of this Amendment is to give power of initiation to the advisory council. I hope at this stage, in view of what has gone before, that the Secretary for Scotland will agree to this Amendment. It is a very small matter. The Scottish Education Department are not to be overruled by this council. I am not suggesting any Amendment which would force the Scottish Education Department to take advice offered by the advisory council. I am only asking leave for this advisory council to give advice and make recommendations to the Department without being specially asked to do so. If this advisory council is to be of any use, or any authority, surely the Members might be allowed to give advice without first asking permission from the Scottish Education Department! It seems to me not to allow this is a very small and petty matter; for a good many of those concerned set a good deal of store by it, and it would give a better status if these words were taken out. I do not see that the alteration would in any way affect the dignity of the Scottish Education Department. They are still left the power of taking the advice into consideration, and that is all they are asked to do. I am sure the Secretary for. Scotland will seriously consider the acceptance of this Amendment, which will give an improved status to the advisory council. Leave the Clause out altogether; otherwise give the council a chance.
§ Mr. GULLANDI beg to second the Amendment.
The Secretary for Scotland has made admirable progress with his Bill to-night, and I am quite sure if he is in a mood to grant a small concession of this nature he will really add to the popularity of his Bill in Scotland. It will also add to the smooth working of it. A few minutes ago he said that he thought it would be a mistake to stereotype the membership of the council. What we are asking him now to do is to refrain from sterotyping the duties 209 of the council. We ask that its working may be a little more elastic than suggested in the Bill. I think this is desirable in order that the council may be a success, because many people do not approve of it, and are throwing cold water upon it. If it is properly worked, the council may be a most admirable body. Even if this Amendment is agreed to, it does not take the matter very far, because, after all, the Department can do practically what it likes. In the first place, they appoint the council, and they can appoint whoever they please, and the members may be as tame as the Department likes. The Department may appoint men and women beforehand whom it knows exactly what they will say, and after they have reported the Department does not need to accept or adopt one single recommendation they make. It is merely an advisory council, and surely when you are going to set up a council like that it ought to have a little freedom. The Bill grudgingly says that it may consider matters submited to it by the Department, but if this council is to have any usefulness at all, it ought of its own initiative to be allowed to advise the Department on matters which it wishes to bring forward. To-day there was a very strong discussion and a very strong Division on the question of transferring the Scottish Education Department to Scotland. I do not know what the votes of Scottish Members were, but I should not be surprised to see from the Division List that a very large number of Members representing Scotland did not vote with the Secretary for Scotland.
This is a matter on something like the same lines. This advisory council is a Scottish body sitting in Scotland, presumably, and it really would be a little concession to those Members who have pleaded before for the transfer of the Department to Scotland if the Secretary for Scotland would really for once allow some-body else besides the Department to have something to do with education in Scotland. Let the people of Scotland have some initiative. Surely a Liberal Secretary for Scotland—and I emphasise the word "Liberal"—can trust an advisory council which he himself appoints merely to recommend him something that they feel strongly about, and which he does not permit himself to accept or adopt even when they recommend it. I feel very strongly that this advisory council, which, I think, will be a very useful thing, should be given a little more freedom and initia- 210 tive at the early stages. At a time when the right hon. Gentleman is carrying everything before him, as he has done to-day, I hope he will grant us a little concession of this nature.
§ Sir W. BEALEI think the Secretary for Scotland would be well advised to accept the Amendment, for there is no subject on which people like to make suggestions more than upon education. I think it would be very useful if people, instead of having to bring all their ideas before my lord could go to the advisory committee. I am sure this course would tend very much to improvements in education, and it would give opportunities of doing a great deal in the way of furnishing useful advice, and it would save a good deal of useless advice.
§ Mr. DUNCAN MILLARI wish to associate myself with the earnest and eloquent appeal which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dumfries Burghs (Mr. Gulland) and other hon. Members who have spoken upon this Amendment, which I hope the Secretary for Scotland will see his way to accept. Unless these words are deleted from the Clause as it stands you certainly will not get the people to accept office upon this advisory committee which we desire to see acting, because their powers are so extremely limited. The right hon. Gentleman has indicated the type of persons, such as the representatives of universities or schools of art and other institutions throughout the country. These gentlemen will all be more or less experts in educational matters, and they will possess very valuable information and knowledge which they can bring to the notice and attention of the Department. To suggest that they are to be appointed on the advisory committee and never to give any advice unless they are asked, and they may not be asked, is very remarkable. There is no suggestion that they are to be invited to give advice from time to time, and therefore it rests entirely with the Department to say whether or not they are ever to open their mouths.
Surely that is not a position which any man of standing will be prepared to accept, and I sincerely urge upon the Secretary for Scotland that in this matter he should make the advisory council from the beginning of such a status and position of influence that it will attract to it the best educational advisers in Scotland. I have had the privilege of acting upon 211 one or two advisory committees in connection with various Departments and I have never known one appointed simply to give advice when it is asked. The rule is that they deal with certain problems which they consider, and then they give the benefit of their advice to the Department directly. Of course the Department need not take action, but in many cases one has known that the advice given has been regarded as valuable and useful, and has been accepted with considerable advantage. I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment.
§ Mr. MUNROThere are two considerations which incline me to accept this Amendment. The first is quits irrelevant, and the second is entirely relevant. The irrelevant consideration is that I am deeply grateful to the House for the progress I have been enabled to make with this Bill to-day, thanks to its courtesy and consideration, and if this concession were regarded as a small return for that consideration, I would willingly make it. The relevant consideration is the extraordinarily persuasive and eloquent speech which my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries Burghs (Mr. Gulland) has made. I feel it difficult, indeed, almost impossible, to resist such an appeal. However upon his shoulders must rest any evil consequences which may befall us if this Amendment be accepted. I propose to accept it subject to that note of warning. I hope the house will not regard this as ungrateful. I am willing to take the risk, always reminding the House and the country that the responsibility lies upon the shoulders of the right hon. Gentleman opposite.
§ Sir J. JARDINEI would like to congratulate the Secretary for Scotland upon having yielded to the persistent demands of the right hon. Gentleman opposite and other hon. Members who have spoken on this subject. We require to have advice tendered by competent men upon these questions, and I think our experience shows the great value of getting enlightenment by whatever means you can and from whatever cause.
§ Amendment agreed to.