CLAUSE 2.—(Electoral Division.) (Hansard, 16 October 1918)

§ Mr. HOGGE
I have given notice of an Amendment, to add at the end the words "but shall submit such divisions before they are finally approved to Parliament," but, as I understand the Secretary for Scotland is moving an Amendment of his own which covers the point, I do not propose to move.

§ Mr. MUNRO
I beg to move, at the end, to insert the words: (2) Before making an Order under this Section the Secretary for Scotland shall cause the proposed Order to be published in such manner as to make the same known to all persons interested, and shall, after considering any objections and representations respecting the proposed Order, and causing a local inquiry to be held if he sees fit to do so, thereafter make the Order and cause the same to be forthwith published in the "Edinburgh Gazette" and in a newspaper circulating in the education area. I move this Amendment in order to meet the objection which was taken in Committee upstairs on this point. It was there suggested that it would be reasonable that the Order joining districts should be published, in order that objections, if any, might be urged. On consideration it seemed to me that my hon. and learned Friend's proposal was a reasonable one, and accordingly I have met it by putting down this Amendment. I am obliged to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) for recognising that in substance my Amendment covers the point which he has in mind.

§ Mr. GULLAND
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, 151 after the word "this" ["under this Section"], to insert the words "and the following."
I think the right hon. Gentleman has acted very wisely in proposing this Amendment, because it does give local opinion the opportunity of saying whether proposed electoral divisions are suitable or not. My Amendment to his proposed Amendment is with the object of carrying the Clause a little further. He says, Let us advertise our scheme, and let us hear any objections before we make it final. What I say is, "Also advertise the number of members in each electoral division, and advertise them in the same way, and have the inquiry on them in the same way." If you do that, I am sure you will take public opinion with you far more adequately than if you only advertise the limited point of the electoral division. I can see no reason against it, and as the right hon. Gentleman has been good enough to give way to what was the opinion of the Committee on one point, I beg he will see his way to agree to my Amendment also.

§ Mr. HOGGE
I have an Amendment on the Paper which was put down with the same intention of getting an explanation from the Secretary for Scotland as to what is meant by the following Clause. If we took the discussion of that point on this Amendment we could save the discussion of my Amendment later on. The point I want to get at is that in the following Section you deal with the number of members to be elected to each education authority in an apportionment among the electoral divisions. At the moment that is left entirely in the hands of the Secretary for Scotland, who has himself objected very strongly on more occasions than one to this kind of autocratic and bureaucratic power. This Clause gives the Secretary for Scotland much more power than I think the people of Scotland want to see him endowed with, and probably a great deal more power than he would like to assume himself; and I should like to know what kind of relations are the new numbers of the local education authorities to bear to the number of existing members of the school boards, and by what rule is the Secretary for Scotland going to determine whether Edinburgh shall have so many members as against Glasgow or any other part of Scotland, or the ratio between county and burgh? I hope my right hon. Friend will let us 152 understand that while this is in the Bill he is not assuming a power which is quite unknown in Scotland with regard to this matter, and that he proposes to allow the electorates in Scotland, in the scheduled areas, to have ample opportunity of dealing with the amount of the representation both in its method and in its personnel.

§ Mr. MUNRO
As I understand the Amendment before the House, the intention and the effect of it are that the Order which the Secretary for Scotland proposes to make in the matter of the number of members should be advertised in the same way as the Order which he proposes to make in determining the divisions of the electoral areas. I have thought that in the latter case it is reasonable that this opportunity should be afforded, and I am bound to say that I appreciate the logic upon which my right hon. Friend's Amendment is based, the argument being that if it is reasonable in the one case, it is also reasonable in the other. I really think there is no answer on that, and I do not propose to make any answer except to say that I shall accept his Amendment. I think, probably, that that answers the point which the hon. Member for East Edinburgh has raised. I am not in a position here and now to announce the numbers or the relationship between the numbers which may be proposed after the divisions have been mapped out.

§ Mr. HOGGE
Will they be arbitrary?

§ Mr. MUNRO
They will not be arbitrary for this reason: When any proposal is made by me it will be published so as to make it known to all persons interested, and any objections or recommendations which they think fit to make will be considered, so that there will be the most ample opportunity for all interests to state their case, and to make any representations against the numbers proposed. I therefore think my hon. Friend could not describe that as arbitrary, I think that by making this concession to my right hon. Friend opposite I shall at the same time meet the main objections which the hon. Member for East Edinburgh has made. In these circumstances I should wish to move my Amendment along with that proposed by my right hon. Friend opposite.