HC Deb 14 November 1918 vol 110 cc3057-64

(1) It shall be the duty of the Minister to make provision for the care of any children (including illegitimate children), being the children of men ill the Naval, Military, or Air Service of His Majesty who have died from causes arising out of their service during the present War or who are on active service, who by reason of their mothers being dead or for any other reason are suffering from neglect or want of proper care, and the Minister may out of any funds at his disposal for the purpose make grants for the purpose of making such provision as aforesaid.

(2) The Minister may, subject to such conditions as he thinks fit, provide for the performance by committees of his duty under this Section.

(3) Any question which may arise with respect to the amount of any grant to be made under this Section shall, if the Minister so directs, be referred to the special grants committee for report.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "children" ["being the children"], to insert the words "and young persons."

It appears to me that some more clear definition is required as to what is meant by children. The definition of children differs in various Acts of Parliament. It is different in the preceding Act, to which this is a supplementary Bill. My point, briefly, is this, that care should be exercised over children beyond the age when they are technically termed children. It is in order to enable the Ministry to have a complete scheme for young persons as well as children that I think he requires to broaden the words in the Bill. I beg to move.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I do not think that this Amendment is really necessary, because my hon. Friend will see that Clause 8, page 6, line 27, the right hon. Gentleman has put down an Amendment which says, "For the purposes of this Section a child means any child to or in respect of whom a pension, allowance, or separation allowance is payable." So we take, therefore, the definition of a child, a child under the age of sixteen. If a child is invalid it could go as high as twenty-one. I think that would cover what my hon. Friend has in mind.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

It would, if I saw that the hon. Gentleman had power. I think it is hardly reasonable that we should have to discuss these important points at one o'clock in the morning. The statutory definition of a child in the previous Act is someone who has not attained the age of sixteen. If, therefore, you are going to give, say, educational care to young persons who are above the age of sixteen, the Amendment to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is not relevant, because the Amendment to which the right hon. Gentleman refers on the Paper which he is going to move later refers only to a child as defined in the previous Act, which is a child under sixteen. Therefore I want to know how you are going to get authority to give educational and other care to young persons between sixteen and eighteen.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I think it is quite clear from the words on the Paper— for the purposes of this Section a child means any child to or in respect of whom a pension allowance or separation allowance is payable. It is done in terms of the Royal Warrant. In certain cases, where a child is invalid, these allowances are paid up to a higher age, which I believe is twenty-one.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made, in Sub-section (1), after the word "of" ["children of men"], insert the words "officers or."—[Colonel McCalmont.]

Sir G. TOULMIN

I beg to move to leave out the word "suffering" [" suffering from neglect"], and to insert instead thereof the words, in circumstances which may cause them to suffer. The purpose is rather to increase the power, which the Ministry has, to keep guardianship of these children. As the Clause is drawn it appears to me that it only authorises the Ministry to come in when the children are suffering from neglect. I think it is reasonable, with the father being away and the mother dead, when the circumstances of the child change, to try to exercise some oversight at once without allowing the child to fall into circumstances in which it will suffer. Those who have experience of the Poor Law know how a child is taken if there is money attached to it, particularly if the child is able to earn a certain amount of money. I should like the Minister to say whether he could not adopt some words which would strengthen his powers with regard to the oversight of these children who have no parents.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I entirely sympathise with my hon. Friend in his desire to see that there are no children in this position who suffer, and the whole object of the Clause is to provide against that. After all, I do not think we can go beyond this to ascertain whether in fact the child is suffering. I do not think we can act on a mere suspicion. As my hon. Friend says, there are liberal allowances now, and there is no reason why a child should suffer. We propose to have a very vigilant outlook on this matter, and where we are convinced there is suffering to exercise our powers under the Bill.

Mr. A. WILLIAMS

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not stand to that opinion. It would be injurious in a case of this sort. The point has arisen for years in connection with the Cruelty to Children Act. The law could do nothing if the child was saved from suffering by the action of some kind neighbour, and it was absolutely necessary to bring in words, and that is the intention of my hon. Friend here; and without standing exactly to his words, I hope the Government will accept some such words. Otherwise they will be in this absurd position, that they cannot interfere in the case of a child who has been hopelessly neglected if a kind neighbour has taken it in and the neglectful mother is able to say, "My child is not suffering, because a neighbour has taken it in, and therefore the law cannot interfere." I hope we shall have the words suggested by my hon. Friend or simply the words "or likely to suffer."

1.0 A.M.

Sir G. TOULMIN

Could the hon. Member tell us how he is going to exercise the vigilance which would prevent a child getting into these circumstances in which she will suffer? How is he going to know? This Clause makes it the duty of the Pensions Minister to make provision, but that does not take place until the child is suffering. What I want is the machinery by which the oversight of these children will be begun after the mother is dead or in the asylum, or, at any rate, when the child is removed from guardianship.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

The machinery is provided by the local war pensions committee, which will report on these cases, probably in the first place to the Minister, who will, no doubt, refer them to the Special Grants Committee of the Ministry, which is setting up special machinery to deal with these cases. Either the child is suffering or not suffering, and if we give the right to interfere when the child is not suffering it would be open to criticism. If the child is suffering we shall intervene, and I cannot undertake to go beyond that. It would be contrary to public policy to do so, and I am sure my hon. Friend will see that we have gone as far as we can.

Sir G. TOULMIN

Is there to be a system of visiting these children?

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

Yes.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

Mr. Chairman, may I, on a point of Order, ask whether you will accept the Motion that the Committee do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

We could not accept that Motion until we have taken this Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

There are still thirteen pages of Amendments to the Bill left, and some of them deal with points of great educational importance which some Members desire particularly to discuss. It is unreasonable, I think, to expect a Committee to sit later than one o'clock, and I am quite sure it will not hold up a Bill, but would rather greatly facilitate the Government in getting it through if we might allow the remainder of the discussion to stand over. I therefore move, "That the Committee report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I earnestly hope the Committee will not assent to that. This is an important Bill on which the welfare of a very large number of disabled soldiers and their dependants will largely depend, because unless we have the further powers we are asking for, we cannot see to it that the committees are doing their work as they should. We are right at the end of the Session. It is not my fault that the Bill is going on at this late hour. I was anxious to have it through earlier to-day and last night, and I must not be blamed because it was not done. I am quite sure it will really jeopardise the Bill; and with regard to the Motion of my hon. Friend, I will just say this: That, although there is a long list of Amendments still on the Paper, the majority of them are agreed Amendments, and most of the Clauses are put down to carry out undertakings I have made to hon. Friends in this House.

Sir M. BARLOW

On the Second Reading it was arranged that the matter should be referred to the Parliamentary Pensions Bureau for consideration. The Ministry have met us on a large number of Amendments, and I do think that, though there appears to be a great deal of printing on the Paper, there is not a deal of substance in it. In consideration of the fact that we have agreed to a very large number of points. I do hope this Motion will not be accepted, and that we shall proceed to the consideration of the Amendments that stand on the Paper.

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and negatived.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "may" ["The Minister may"], and to insert instead thereof the word "shall."

This Amendment is a preliminary Amendment and hangs together with the Amendment that follows it on Clause 8, and it must, therefore, be read with the subsequent Amendments. The effect of them is to direct the Minister that the duties of this Section shall be referred to the special grants committee. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would deal with the question by which the policy involved in the various Amendments upon this one Amendment, which will save the time of the Committee. I desire briefly to point out that the duties in question are at present performed by the special grants committee. No reference, however, to the special grants committee is made in the Sub-section in question. It simply reads that the Ministry may provide for the performance of these duties by committees under this Section. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept this Amendment, which introduces no new feature into the policy of the previous Act and of this Bill, but simply provides for the Special Grants Committee continuing to do the work which they are now doing.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I would like to reply on this Amendment to the general argument of the hon. Member. I cannot understand why you should take away those powers from the local committees. What we want is to employ the special grants committee, but we want them to get their information, in the first instance, from the local committees. The duty is laid by the Bill, and by an Amendment which I am going to move myself later, on the special grants committee, which we wish to use as our central body. But they must get the information from the local committees as well as recommendations and by this Clause we wish to impose certain duties on the local committees. As I understand the hon. Member's Amendment, he would take that power away, and I think that the scheme of the Bill is more effective than the scheme which he would set up by the Amendment.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

May I take it, then, the hon. Gentleman has no intention of interfering with the duties at present performed by the special grants committee, and that they will continue unimpaired?

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

Quite right.

Mr. WHITEHOUSE

Then I will withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir G. TOULMIN

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2) after the word "by" ["performances by committees"] to insert the words "special grants committees and others."

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

Is it not the same point as we have been discussing?

Sir G. TOULMIN

I am not sure whether the Minister would like it to be the special grants committee.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I cannot accept the words. I have an Amendment down which I think covers the point.

Sir G. TOULMIN

I understood when we had this matter up that it was necessary to put the special grants committee into his Clause. It does not come under the definition of committee.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

The question of the special grants committee arises under Sub-section (3). If my hon. Friend will look at Sub-section (3) he will see that it comes up there. It does not apply at this point. When I reach Subsection (3) I shall move the Amendment to which I have referred.

Sir M. BARLOW

I am not quite sure that we are quite ad idem about this. Subsection (2) says: The Minister may, subject to any conditions as he thinks fit, provide for the performance by the committee of duties under this Section. That is to say, he may delegate his duties to committees. Our point with regard to that is that if he is going to delegate to committees the word "committees" should be allowed to include the special grants committee. When we get to Subsection 3—I will not deal with it now, because I do not want to get out of order, as I should do if I did—it is quite a different thing. Any question which may arise with regard to the amount of any grants under the Section shall be, as the Minister directs, referred to the special grants committee. It is a different point altogether. We are not dealing with the reference by the Minister to the special grants committee. We are dealing with the question of delegation by the Minister of his rights to the committee. Where the Minister does that we want the word to include the special grants committee. That is really quite simple.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I am quite willing to meet my hon. Friend. I do not think it is quite necessary, but I am quite willing to agree to it. Only it must be the special grants committee, and not the special grants committees.

Sir M. BARLOW

I agree. I do not think we put it in the plural.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "by" ["performance by committees"], insert the words "special grants committee and other."—[Sir G. Toulmin.]

In Sub-section (3), after the word "to" ["referred to "], insert the words "and determined by."

Leave out the words "for report."

At end, add (4) Any child for the care of whom it is the duty of the Minister under this ejection to make provision may be committed to the care of the Minister by an Order made under Section twenty-one of the Children Act, 1908, as if the Minister were named in that Section as a person to whose care a child or young person may be Committed. (5) For the purposes of this Section a child means any child to, or in respect of, whom a pension, allowance, or separation allowance is payable."—[Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen.]

Sir J. HOPE

I beg to move, after the word last inserted, to add the words, The Minister or, where the duty of the Minister under this Section is being performed by a committee, the committee shall in any case in which it is proposed in pursuance of the provisions of this Section to place any child in any institution or under the care of any person endeavour to ascertain the religious denomination to which the child belongs, and no child shall be placed in an institution or under the care of a person not belonging to the same religious denomination as the child unless the persons having the management of the institution or the person under whose care the child is to be placed, as the case may be, give or gives such undertaking as seems to the Minister or the committee sufficient that the child shall be brought up in accordance with its own religious persuasion. Where such an undertaking as aforesaid given by the persons having the management of any institution or by any person is not observed the Minister or committee, as the case may be, shall as soon as may be remove the child from the institution or from the care of that person. This Amendment is only to ensure that the religious denomination of the child shall he respected.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I accept.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9 (Pensions in Certain Cases not to be taken into Account for the Purposes of Poor Law Belief) ordered to stand part of the Bill.