HC Deb 09 May 1918 vol 105 cc2405-15

Proviso (b) to Sub-section (1) of Section two of the Post Office Act, 1908 (which limits the rates of prepaid postage which may be fixed by the Treasury for certain classes of postal packets), shall have effect as though for the words "for an inland postcard shall not exceed one halfpenny" in paragraph (i) thereof there were substituted the words "for an inland postcard shall not exceed one penny," and as though for paragraph (ii) thereof there were substituted the following paragraph: —

"(ii) for an inland book packet shall not exceed—

if the packet is not over one ounce in weight, one halfpenny;

if the packet is over one ounce and not over two ounces in weight, one penny;

if the packet is over two ounces in weight, one penny for the first two ounces, and one halfpenny for every two ounces or fractional part of two ounces over and above the first or any additional two ounces."

Mr. WILSON-FOX

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to insert the words Provided that transactions of any learned society, being a member of or recommended by the Conjoint Board of Scientific Societies, may be posted at the same rates as are applicable to registered newspapers. From the financial point of view, this is a very small concession that is required, but from the point of view of the societies to which it relates the effect of this Amendment is certainly important. I would remind the House that the learned societies throughout the whole of this country have been doing most important national work both as societies and through the individual efforts of their members. I think it required this War to bring us all to realise how much we owe to the efforts of individual societies to promote science in this country, because there is very little doubt that before the War science in this country had not received the support and recognition which it requires. Most of these societies are struggling, and dependent for all their expenses upon the subscriptions of their members. Many of them have already had to cut down the amount of literature which they send out to their members in consequence of various restrictions with regard to paper, and it is important on national grounds that no further restrictions than are absolutely needed should be placed upon them in their efforts to spread the literature of science as much as it can be spread among the classes who understand it. There is no question that the issue of their transactions promotes discussion. They contain suggestions of which advantage is taken by every speaker and they tend to promote invention. On all these grounds, I submit that no action should be taken by the Government which would tend to restrict and hamper this important national work. They would be hit very seriously if the postage on their transactions were increased. I therefore hope that the Government may see their way to accord to them the favourable treatment which is contemplated in this Amendment.

It may be asked, What are learned societies? Is it possible to identify them? To-day that is a question to which an answer can very readily be given, because during the War, in order to enable science to speak with one voice, a very important body, which is in close touch with many of the Government Departments has been formed, called the Conjoint Board of Scientific Societies. It was formed at the suggestion and under the aegis of the Royal Society, and the President of the Royal Society, that distinguished physicist and mathematician, Sir Joseph Thomson, is president of the Conjoint Board. A very large number of the important scientific societies, including most of the technical societies, are members of it, and the work of all the societies and of all branches of science is studied by the Board. They are, therefore, in a position, if desired, to inform the Government to which societies this privilege, if it is given, should be accorded. That would make the task of the Post Office, which I presume would have the handling of this matter, comparatively easy. I do not think that I need say anything further on the question of finance. It is obvious that this concession would only be a very small one, but it may be suggested that the' machinery to work it would be difficult to set up and put in motion. So far as a private individual can, I have made inquiries on the point, and I am informed by people who should know what they are talking about that there would be no difficulty if the names of the societies to which the concession would apply were registered at the Post Office, just as newspapers are registered, and I hope that both the Treasury and the Post Office will be willing to accept the Amendment.

Sir J. LARMOR

I am glad that the representatives of science in this House are moving in this matter, and my only objection to this Amendment is that it is too narrow. The learned societies which represent literature have the same right to have more freedom and less expense in the important service which they are rendering to this country in circulating literature and in developing the intellectual side of our national life as the representatives of scientific societies, and, as a university Member, I am very glad to be in a position to ask the Postmaster, in case he is able, as I hope he will be able, to make some remission of expense to the one group of societies, to make it to the other group also. I have known for many a year that even the old rates of postage came as a very heavy tax on a society which was not very wealthy and which had no funds at all except the subscriptions of its members. In addition to the members supplying the literature, which was an asset both to the instruction of the country and to its position in the international world, they had to pay hundreds of pounds a year for postage. If the publications which they issue could be registered as newspapers, they would get privileges which, not being registered as newspapers, they cannot get. I am not very certain, but I put this to the Postmaster, that in America the facilities for the mailing of the scientific and literary matter which is issued by societies of standing in the national life are much greater than they are here. The hon. Member who made the proposal suggested that the Royal Society might carry this out in the case of science. No doubt it would do so very well. The British Academy might do the same thing in the case of the literary societies. This is a case in which at very slight expense to the national funds the Postmaster might take steps which would encourage very much people who give their whole efforts towards the production of science and literature which stands to our credit and position among the great nations of the world.

Sir P. MAGNUS

I should like to be allowed to say a word or two in support of the Amendment of my hon. Friend, and I sincerely trust that the Postmaster, after having heard the speeches that have been already made, will see his way to grant this very small concession for which we ask. The loss to the revenue would be absolutely insignificant. I might say, in the mathematical language, that it would be an infinitesimal small quantity. One very important reason why this concession should be granted is that it would not form a precedent for a number of other bodies. The Postmaster-General might say, "If I grant this I shall have to grant a similar concession to a great many other bodies, and that would mean a considerable reduction in the revenues of the Post Office." May I point out that this is really a special case dealing with special societies which are well known, and which differ from a large number of other less important bodies. The Member for the University of Cambridge (Sir J. Larmor) has very rightly made an appeal on behalf of the literary societies, but may I state that it was the intention of my hon. Friend and myself in putting down this proposal that it should refer to the well known scientific and literary societies. Their number is not large and the quantity of transactions which they send round in the course of the year would be comparatively small, and there would be no difficulty in leaving to the Conjoint Board of Scientific Societies the determination, not only of the scientific societies which should be included, but also the few literary societies. The proposal is worded: Provided that transactions of any learned society, being a member of or recommended by the Conjoint Board of Scientific Societies, may be posted at the same rates as are applicable to registered newspapers. I think we might safely trust this Conjoint Board to recommend the literary societies as well as the scientific societies to whom this privilege could be granted. This is a very opportune time for making this proposal and appealing to the Postmaster-General to grant it. We are endeavouring to pass through the Committee of this House and ultimately through the House itself an Education Bill which will improve the education of the whole people of this country. The higher branches of education, are dealt with by the scientific and literary societies, and even if it involves the loss of a small amount of revenue that small amount will be extremely well spent in enabling the members of those societies to receive the transactions, and the accounts of their proceedings. I know of nothing in any branch of education which affords so much opportunity for thought and encourages investigation, whether on the scientific or the literary side of learning, as the opportunity of reading extracts of the proceedings that take place at these learned societies, and it seems to me that by refusing to make this small concession and giving up this small amount of money you are thereby putting a tax on the highest grades of learning. For these reasons I support the Amendment of my hon. Friend.

Mr. ANDERSON

I hope the Postmaster-General will not accept this Amendment, and in saying that I am quite sure that we do not belittle the importance of the work of those societies, or underestimate their value. One part of this proposal will be to take out of the hands of the Postmaster-General altogether the rates applicable to certain transactions, and instead of being vested in the hands of the Postmaster-General they are to be placed in the hands of the Conjoint Board of Scientific Societies.

Mr. WILSON-FOX

No!

Mr. ANDERSON

Evidently the hon. Member has not read his own Amendment because it says in regard to any learned society. If it is recommended by this Conjoint Board, then these rates are going to apply so that as far as any learned society is concerned the rates to be applied to their communications are not going to be settled by the Postmaster-General but by the Conjoint Board. Important and invaluable as these societies are, there are any number of other societies that have an equal claim to special consideration of this kind, and once you allow this principle there are any number of other societies belonging to poor people who would put forward a similar claim, and they would want to know why you treat the learned societies upon a different level.

Sir P. MAGNUS

Because they are learned.

Mr. BOOTH

Because they call themselves learned.

Mr. ANDERSON

Is that any reason for special treatment? There are any number of other societies carrying on important educational and trade union work, and they would have quite as strong a claim for special treatment. Therefore, I assure the Postmaster-General if he once opens this door he is going to lead to great difficulties, and he will have any number of other Amendments, and there would be a most unfair feeling on the part of other societies if he is going to allow special treatment in this case.

Mr. BOOTH

I must offer a very strong opposition to this Amendment. We all have in mind hospitals and charities who make appeals for very good objects almost entirely on behalf of very poor people. These learned societies are largely composed of rich men.

Sir J. LARMOR

No.

Mr. BOOTH

Certainly they are, and the last thing they wish is to be considered poor. If this concession is made we shall very soon have the Notice Paper full of other Amendments. If the Postmaster-General grants this he will have to turn a sympathetic ear to every other case as deserving, and I am sure the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) and myself could in a minute or two put down twelve or twenty more Amendments in regard to which we could rely on the Postmaster-General doing a good turn on the plea that the expense would be small. If we have any idea respecting the taxpayer I think we must draw the line here. There are a great many who will consider that certain businesses might be recognised. Take the case of a small business struggling with foreign competition. They are quite capable of coming here and saying, "The only way we can keep going is that we should have no postage to pay at all." If the Postmaster-General thinks of granting this concession I have many other persuasive arguments which I could use, but if he is going to remain firm there is no necessity for me to continue my remarks.

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Illingworth)

I am afraid if this concession were granted it would form a very dangerous precedent, and would lead to making many other concessions in other ways. There are plenty of other people not embraced in scientific societies who have many other interests which they are equally anxious to advance, and if it is granted in the one case it would have to be granted in many others. The hon. Member for Tamworth (Mr. Wilson-Fox) said there would be no administrative difficulties in regard to this proposal, but I am afraid that there would be. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir J. Larmor) asked for an extension of this proposal in regard to other undertakings in which he was more particularly interested. I am afraid, however, that I cannot accept the Amendment, for these reasons.

Mr. KING

I congratulate the Postmaster-General on his good sense and his courage. This is a very foolish Amendment, and therefore it is very sensible to turn it down. It is also very courageous of the right hon. Gentleman, because this proposal is evidently well supported by very prominent and powerful and wealthy persons, and I am very grateful to him for taking the right line. I should just like to point out what it really means. It means that the transactions of any learned society which were recommended by the Conjoint Board should be posted at the same rates as newspapers and not as book packages. Only this very day I have filled in a form, which I receive every year as a member of a learned society, to have sent to me the volume of transactions of the British Association for the Advancement of Science. That volume weighs generally about 5 lbs. or 6 lbs.; it is very large, and it is so heavy that they have been in the habit of sending it by railway parcel instead of by the parcels post, because it is cheaper to send it in that way. In future, under this proposal, they would be able to send it cheaper than ever, because it would come at the rate of newspapers. That only needs to be pointed out to show how foolish it is to put down an Amendment like this and then come forward and state that it is in the interests of science. It is only in the interests of members of wealthy societies. The Royal Society is extremely wealthy.

Sir J. LARMOR

That statement is totally unfounded, for it is a poor society.

8.0 P.M.

Mr. KING

The hon. Gentleman is not in possession of the House, and he is very disorderly. At any rate, the Royal Society gives the appearance of being a very wealthy society; but there is no doubt about it that the societies which would benefit by this proposal are very wealthy. I will give another instance. There is the Royal Geographical Society, which publishes very voluminous transactions. That society has had large legacies recently, and quite in recent days they have gone into most beautiful premises in Kensington, with most elegant rooms and beautiful gardens. That is the sort of society you would benefit at the expense of the taxpayer at the present time.

Sir J. LARMOR

No!

Mr. KING

Yes, you would! It is a learned society, and I think it is connected with the Conjoint Board. I might give cases of other societies. There is the Zoological Society, which carries on the Zoological Gardens in Regent's Park. That would be entitled under this Clause to special advantages and privileges, a most undesirable proposal. I am afraid, in speaking against this Amendment after it has been refused by the Postmaster-General, I am only slaying the dead, but at any rate I wish it to be understood that the sense of sensible men is so much against it that it ought never to appear on any future occasion.

Amendment negatived.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 (Short Title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

Mr. KING

I think this is being taken rather rapidly. I do not know why the Third Reading should be taken now at all.

The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Pike Pease)

I hope the hon. Gentleman will allow the Bill to pass its Third Reading now, and go to the House of Lords.

Mr. WATT

May I ask whether the principle of passing the Bill so rapidly is not a bad one for this House? It is not question—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Donald Maclean)

The hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) is in possession of the House.

Mr. KING

Personally, I do not think this is at all a good Bill. I do not see why we should let it pass, and rushing it through in this way without proper consideration does not predispose me either favourably to the Government or to this Bill. I do not see any urgent necessity why we should take the Third Beading to-day. In fact, I am not quite sure that we can. I thought that the proceedings on the Post Office (No. 2) Bill meant only the Committee stage, because the Committee stage is the only stage that is down on the Paper. On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I should like to put this to you: We are entitled to take before Supply to-day, according to the Resolution that has been passed, the proceedings on the Post Office (No. 2) Bill. The only proceedings down on the Order Paper marked in italics are the Committee stage, and not the Third Reading. I put it to you that the Third Reading cannot be taken, and is not authorised to be taken, by the Resolution we have passed.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The Resolution just refers to proceedings on the Post Office (No. 2) Bill. I do not think that confines it to a particular stage.

Mr. KING

"Proceedings," of course, must refer to the proceedings which are down as Orders of the Day, and the Order of the Day is the Committee stage. In fact, the first three Orders of the Day are printed in italics, so that it can be clearly and distinctly understood by hon. Members what they can take before Supply in the event of the Resolution being passed. I submit, with great respect, that we are not entitled to take this Order.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

All the stages of the Bill can be taken if the House think fit.

Mr. BOOTH

On that point, Mr. Deputy-Speaker—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I have decided the point of Order.

Mr. BOOTH

Having ruled that we can take it, may I suggest that it must be with the consent of the House, and that if the House refuse its consent—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I said if the House think fit.

Mr. BOOTH

Then is it not the proper course for the Government to ask for our consent?

Mr. ILLINGWORTH

I hope the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) will not persist in his opposition. It is very necessary to get the Bill through, as it has to go to another place, and I want to give sufficiently long notice to the public so that it will be understood all over the country, and so that people will not be so liable to put on lesser rates of postage and have to pay a surcharge. The House will be getting up shortly, and it does not leave very much time. I want this to be operative on the 1st June. If it is not it means delay for a very long time, and the Exchequer will lose a very considerable sum of money in consequence. I hope the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his objection.

Mr. KING

After the very courteous and full explanation of the Postmaster-General, I am very glad not to persist.

Mr. WATT

The hon. Member does not stand alone in this respect. He has a body of followers. He has myself, and what I desire to ask is whether it is not a very bad principle for this House to pass a measure as speedily as is proposed in this case? It is not a question of the intrinsic merits or importance of the Bill but the principle of this House parting too rapidly with a measure which, having passed Committee a few minutes ago, is brought up for Third Reading immediately. I listened to my right hon. Friend, and if we could really take it seriously that there is this extreme pressure for getting this on the Statute Book.

Mr. PIKE PEASE

There is.

Mr. WATT

As I have the assurances of both my right hon. Friends I will not oppose this. As there is this extreme pressure to get this on the Statute Book, to give notice, and in order that the Revenue should not be lost I will not stand in their way, but I still wish to protest against the general principle of passing measures too rapidly through this House before it has had proper time to realise what it is passing.

Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.