HC Deb 12 March 1918 vol 104 cc271-84
Captain SHEEHAN

I do not propose to follow previous speakers into the Ministerial affairs which have been touched upon, for I desire to call the attention of the House to what I regard as a vital matter and a paramount matter for Ireland and Irish interests. I have been away a little over three years from the activities of this House and have had very little acquaintance with public affairs in Ireland. On my return here one question which interested me was that of national reconstruction after the War, in so far as it applies to my own country. I have made inquiries into what is being done, and I ascertained that a great deal was being done for Great Britain. I wished to ascertain to what extent similar projects were being brought forward with regard to Ireland, and as to conditions there, after the War. In the first place, I see that several millions sterling have been appropriated for the purpose of rehousing in England, Scotland and Wales. I have put several questions to the Chief Secretary for Ireland as to what was being done in reference to this matter in Ireland, and I regret to say that although my questions were plain and pertinent, and, as I conceived, fairly to the purpose, I was unable to obtain any direct answer from the right hon. Gentleman as to what was actually being done. I could not get a straight answer to a straight question. I immediately got the impression that the real reason was that nothing whatever had been undertaken, and that only then, possibly, the question was being brought to his notice, for the first time. That impression was deepened in my mind by the proceedings of the Irish Convention, which for the first time dealt with the housing question. We all know the Chief Secretary to be a very clear-headed man, but when it came to giving a straightforward answer to a straightforward question in regard to matters of reconstruction, he appeared to me to be suffering from some form of mental obfuscation. But he brought all his admirable legal training to bear in evading the point at issue. It is not because he lacks any interest in Ireland, because I know, from my own experience of the right hon. Gentleman, that he has been both thorough and earnest in forwarding Irish interests and in his desire to do justice to the country since he became Chief Secretary.

But when he failed, as undoubtedly he did, to know where we stood in regard to the housing question, I turned my attention direct to the Minister of Reconstruction (Dr. Addison) and tried to get what I could from him. On Tuesday, the 5th March, I put a series of questions to him, and I regret to say that exactly as I failed with the Chief Secretary so did I fail with the Minister of Reconstruction. I was particularly interested to know from him something about the recently-appointed Advisory Council. I saw that there were only two representatives of Ireland on that body, who did not in the remotest degree represent Irish labour interests. The reply I received from the. Minister of Reconstruction was to the effect that it would not be possible, without making the Council unduly large, to include representatives of every interest, but he said that in the event of any question affecting Irish labour it would be referred to the Council as being one about which it would be absolutely necessary to obtain the views of Irish representatives of labour. There is not a single question which comes before the Advisory Council which would not affect Irish labour. Labour is directly, concerned in every question of development and of industrial benefit which can be proposed or suggested. I further asked what was being actually done in Ireland, and whether the Minister would consider the advisability of setting up a definitely Irish reconstruction council, thoroughly representative of all Irish interests. The reply of the right hon. Gentleman was that he would consult his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, but that his own view was that most of the objects which I had in my mind would be better accomplished through a strong and representative Advisory Council which was recently set up, and which contains members from England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. Before I sit down I think I shall satisfy Members that nothing of the sort has been done in connection with Irish interests. I asked how many Departments and Committees have been assisting the Minister of Reconstruction in his duty, and upon how many of these was there special representation of Irish interests? I also asked whether inquiries were being conducted in Ireland as to what should be done in national reconstruction in that country after the War? That was a plain and definite question, on which I wanted information that would settle many anxious minds in Ireland, but the only reply was to refer me to a Command Paper of which the number was not correctly given. I will deal with that question of the Command Paper very shortly. I raised a number of other questions, amongst them that of housing, and on that the reply of the Minister of Reconstruction was: I am in consultation with my colleagues on the subject of the general policy of housing throughout the United Kingdom, but have not considered specific schemes which would be dealt with by the several Departments con- concerned."— That raises the whole issue— No special schemes have been considered. From that I assume that no special schemes have been put forward, or, if they have, I want to know their nature and how far they may be applicable to the needs of Ireland, because, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, what might be suitable for England might not be at all satisfactory or meet the conditions which exists in Irish cities and towns. Furthermore, the right hon. Gentleman said that he was not in a position to make a general statement in reply to the question of what proposed work they were going to carry out in Ireland and what special industries it was proposed to foster and develop. Therefore, in reply to my various questions, I did not receive a definite answer of any sort or kind, and I am obliged to raise the question now. I gave notice to the Minister of Reconstruction of my intention to do so. He is not here, but I hope that the Chief Secretary will be able to give me some enlightenment, and to allay some of the doubts which exist amongst large bodies of people in Ireland that nothing is being done in reference to this question of national reconstruction in our country after the War. In a letter from a distinguished gentleman in Ireland who has a very keen interest in these matters, he states to me: I am perfectly clear that nothing at all is being done in this matter in connection with Ireland, and it seems almost useless to get the Government to act in regard to it. The gentleman who wrote that is one of the most eminent men in the country, whose knowledge of these matters is second to none, and who is anxious for the scientific development of the industrial position of the country. I intend to press this question, until I get a satisfactory statement, and until I get something done. I conceive that if the question is allowed merely to be dealt with by the fifteen Committees or Commissions which exist on this side and which are concerned with British and Imperial interests, that nothing will be done for Ireland. I come to some of these Committees. There is Trade Development, which deals purely with the matter from the British point of view and has no Irish member upon it. There is no mention of Ireland, so far as I can make out, except so far as Ireland may be used not for benefiting itself, but for advantaging British trade and prospects. There is a Committee on Trade Relations after the War, in which Ireland may be considered to be interested, but there is no Irish representative. There is the Goal and Power Committee, with no Irish representative. The right hon. Gentleman knows there is a special Committee dealing with the development of electrical power and its economical use, and he is aware that in Ireland we have huge volumes of water going to waste and which could be converted into many useful channels and provide industries which would afford considerable employment to our people. We have the Labour and Employment Committee, and that is a matter surely in which Ireland is directly interested. There will be many of our Irish workers demobilised after the War. At the present time there are no industries in Ireland, and nothing is being done to provide suitable employment for these men. There is nothing they can go back to in the way of industries, and possibly to many of the occupations which they had before the War, owing to the developments which have taken place, unfortunately, in the country since the War; they will not be as welcome back as they might have been in happier circumstances. I feel, a great many of these men having come forward in response to my own recruiting appeals, that I owe them, in a special sense, the duty of seeing that they are not left helpless after the War and that they are absorbed back into civil employment when peace comes.

There is the Agriculture and Forestry Committee, a question which directly appeals to Ireland. So far as the Irish aspect of it is concerned, it should be handled by an Irish Reconstruction Council, but to think that any of these vital matters dealing with Irish affairs will be considered here in England by Committees or Commissions which have the huge interests of this country to look after, and to tell me that we will get any good out of them, I simply do not believe it. Then there is the Dentistry and Dental Surgery Committees, about which some professional men have written to me, and on which there is no Irish representative although the question is of the utmost urgency in Ireland. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman does not take the view that because a change in government in Ireland is at least suggested, and because the Irish Convention has been sitting, that these issues, of tremendous and vital national importance to Ireland, can be shelved. I do not take that view. You do not neglect to get extra war taxation out of Ireland to the extent of £11,000,000 or £12,000,000 per year, and the least we may expect is to get a fair share of it back for development purposes. We have not got it back so far as war material and employment is concerned, and that is a legitimate source of grievance in the country. There is plenty of labour in Ireland which could have been utilised in many directions for war purposes and for the purpose of providing many of the materials and sinews of war and which were absolutely left untouched and untapped and not utilised, with the most disastrous results in the way of giving incentives to agitation in the country. What is going to be done, for instance, as to reafforestation, and how much money is going to be spent on it, and how much is to be spent on housing? I must say I was amazed to find, when I came back a little while ago, that during the War, instead of providing additional allotments for labourers in Ireland under the Labourers Acts, you have suspended that completely since 1915. I thought that was highly injudicious. I know there is considerable complaint about it in various parts of the country. I have received numerous letters myself from labourers who have only got half an acre of land—and, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, from constant tillage that half-acre becomes exhausted—and who have been trying to get, under the Defence of the Realm Regulations worked by the Department of Agriculture, additional land, and have been unable to get the supplies for their family needs.

Nothing is being done to develop the harbours of Ireland. I think, if something had been done to utilise the splendid harbours on the West Coast of Ireland, and so shorten the passage of ships during this War, many of the losses that have taken place on the North and South Coasts of Ireland would have been avoided, and much of the tonnage which has been torpedoed would have been saved for the nation. In education, with which everything is bound up in Ireland—its future, its hopes—unless something is done to speed it up, we shall be absolutely left behind in the race for progress. Nothing has been done. England recognises its own needs under the new Education Bill. Nothing is done. to co-ordinate education in Ireland, to make it suitable to the needs of the nation, and to give to our youths, who are inferior to none in the world in intelligence and in intellect, the opportunity of making the most out of their natural equipment in that respect. Representations were made to the right hon. Gentleman about the cultivation of sugar-beet as an industry in Ireland during the War which might be supported by the Government, but nothing has been done.

Whilst I raise these several issues, I would have the right hon. Gentleman understand that it is most on the question of rehousing that I would base my most earnest appeal to him. All through my life I have regarded the question of housing in the towns and country of Ireland as the object which I myself would pursue to the utmost of my ability. I did something to get cottages for labourers in the rural areas. Immediately before the War I conducted a personal investigation into all the slums of the City of Cork. I visited people in their homes there, and I published the facts of what I found. It would touch the heart of anybody to see the appalling conditions that were there. He would have a heart of stone who could see without feeling the way in which human creatures, having the image of God, have to bring up their little ones who, by the Gospel of Christ, are committed to our care—to bring them up under conditions which are a degradation and a disgrace to our boasted and vaunted civilisation. You could devote no money, no matter how great, to any better purpose than the purpose of finding better homes for the mothers and the children of the workers who have to live in the slums of our cities and towns. I feel that if this opportunity is lost to us in Ireland of making our claim to the equivalent portion of the millions which are undoubtedly about to be spent in England a great chance will be lost. The Minister of Reconstruction was able to tell me outside the House that there are several splendid schemes in progress, and practically perfected, in this country, but he was not able to tell me that anything was being done for Ireland. And so I make an earnest and an urgent plea here to-night that you do tackle this problem in a serious manner. Now there is a Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. It has, I understand, money to spend in paving the way to reconstruction. It has spent a great deal of that money here in England already. I am given to understand that a little bit has gone to Ireland also.

The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Duke)

It is in its preliminary stages.

Captain SHEEHAN

But they have the money to spend in paving the way. I am speaking with perfect knowledge in this matter, because I have made careful inquiries into every statement I am making. The right hon. Gentleman knows that neglect in Ireland is the root of many present-day evils. Today neglect would be a positive danger. You are paying in bitterness and blood and bad-feeling for neglect and muddle-headedness in the past. You are suffering because no heed was paid to the remonstrances of Ireland. I know the reproaches that sometimes are levelled at Irishmen because they have not given in this War a greater contribution, but the other point of view is not taken into account, that you are expecting them to keep faith when in many matters faith has not been kept with them in the past. There is only one way, in my opinion, in which you can seriously tackle this question of national reconstruction, and that is by setting up an Irish Reconstruction Council acting in Irish interests and making inquiries on the spot as to how national development can take place. If we are to trust to various bodies set up in England I feel that nothing will be done, and, therefore, I make the most earnest plea in my power to the right hon. Gentleman to-night to use his in- fluence, and to press as strongly as he can, to have an Irish Council set up which will deal with Irish affairs in an Irish spirit.

Mr. DUKE

I am glad the hon. and gallant Member has raised this question. If I thought it would advance the interests of Ireland, and I were under no obligation of Cabinet secrecy, there are many matters which I could disclose which would carry him a long way towards understanding designs which at present are in a progressive stage towards completion, but the prospect of which it would not be proper that I should spoil by disclosing completely proposals which have not been finally decided. But I sympathise entirely with the spirit in which the hon. and gallant Member has raised this question. He has been so good as to recognise that, so far as I have had it in my power, I have desired to promote the well-being of the country under the exceptionally difficult circumstances of the War, and to satisfy Irish Members that their separate interests were being regarded. I will take the matters to which the hon. and gallant Member has referred seriatim. First of all, there is his proposition that Ireland in these matters must have separate and Irish treatment. I accept it absolutely. It would be wasteful and incongruous, and a hindrance to both countries, that you should stereotype some proposal here, and, because it is good for England, assume it would be good for Ireland. My hon. and gallant Friend may feel quite sure of this, that when practical effect comes to be given to large schemes which necessarily arise in the process of reconstruction, so far as I am concerned, and so far as those with whom I am acting in the Government are concerned, that principle which he has enunciated will be absolutely recognised. Then my hon. and gallant Friend said it would not be proper to leave this question, and to take no account of Irish requirements, because you expect and hope that there may be a settlement of the great question of Irish autonomy. I share many of the wishes and aspirations of my hon. and gallant Friend on that subject. My view of the business of Governments is that you would not be justified, because you expect a general change in the form of administration in Ireland, or because you desire it, in postponing material alterations which ought to be taking place at the present time, owing to the possibility of a change, and making that change the excuse for inaction. There is no such intention. In every scheme, and among those varied schemes which necessarily occupy the time of the Minister of Re-construction and of his Department, the Irish Office and the Irish Department have been kept in touch with everything that has been considered. Their views have been ascertained, and the services of the experts whose opinions they have been able to command have been communicated from day to day. The needs of Ireland have been considered as a separate matter, and the principle which has been acted upon has been the principle that when we come to the time for action, then, in Ireland, there must be in every one of these matters action corresponding, so far as the events in Ireland admit of it, to whatever action is generally thought to be appropriate. I hope that will be satisfactory in a general way. There has been no neglect of the interests of Ireland in accepting responsibility. I should be greatly to blame if in these times, when we all of us bear so many burdens, I was aware of large measures, recuperative measures, measures of defence, which we hope to have in operation after the War in the United Kingdom, and if I neglected any effort to secure that Ireland should share pari passu in whatever advantages were to be derived from an effective policy of reconstruction, and that she should, at the same time, share in these advantages in a way in which those who are familiar with the affairs of Ireland thought best. Generally, I am sure that is the principle on which my Friend would desire that we should proceed.

9.0 P.M.

I want to say something with regard to some individual matters to which my hon. and gallant Friend referred. He spoke of one matter which will some day arise, and I pray that it may not be very distant, when the men who have been fighting our battles at the front will come back, and will know what we are able to do for them at home. There are possibilities with regard to that most attractive thing in Irish life, the soil of Ireland, as to which I hope it will be found, before the occasion arises, that the gallant Irishman who has gone out and not only faced the foreign foe, but has incurred some odium amongst very short-sighted people at home, will find his recognition in the fact that he has a claim on the State for the soil of the country.

Captain SHEEHAN

He fought for it!

Mr. DUKE

He fought for it. My hon. and gallant Friend referred to those who have gone out on his invitation and, at any rate, in this House, it is due to them that we should express our gratitude for the services they have rendered. I am thankful that there is in Ireland another spirit, besides that recalcitrant and hostile spirit, which does recognise their services, and admire their gallantry; and I hope it will not be found, when they come back, that we shall fail in the obligation under which we lie to them in the matter. The hon. and gallant Gentleman referred to the question of labourers' plots. Those who come back after a considerable absence say that the face of Ireland has been transformed by the enormous advance there has been. Those who have had charge of Irish affairs may say this to Irishmen: "Your agriculture was paralysed by a system under which the old balance between tillage and pasture had disappeared, and such vast areas of your fat lands were under pasture which showed that the country was not doing its best in the production of food." One who has been familiar with the face of Ireland for years tells me that he passed through districts where there had been nothing but green fields, and he saw vast areas of that now ploughed. I trust that although that is the result of the War, it will be a blessing in this country, and my view is, and I trust it will be the view of any man responsible for administration in Ireland—I am sure it will be satisfactory to the Irish people generally—that this change into tillage which has begun to overtake pasture, and the balance of agriculture which has been begun to be restored, will be continued until it is complete.

Then there is the great allied question of afforestation. That is a subject which is reaching a stage at which I hope it will not be long before some definite course may be capable of being declared. At a time when you are engrossed in making war, when all the apparatus for carrying on the arts of peace is lacking to you, it is a very difficult thing. We have been deforesting, and cannot take up at the moment a systematic work of afforestation, but I tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman that that is a business upon which the Ministry of Reconstruction is actively engaged, and that the Chief Secretary's office and the very capable officers of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, who. always have that matter under their care, are being consulted step by step with regard to all the action under consideration. There has been no neglect of the interests of Ireland in that sense. I have had varied consultations with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Reconstruction and his officials, and with various skilled people in Ireland who have great familiarity with the farms of Ireland, on the possibilities of the work of afforestation, and that is not a subject which is in any way lost sight of, or in which there is any kind of danger that Ireland will suffer by neglect comparatively with Great Britain. As to harbours and electricity works, and matters of that kind, I will say this. All the harbours of Ireland have been visited by a Commission which took into consideration whether, during the War, advantage could be taken of great natural resources for the purpose of completing our preparations for defence and our security at home. A Commission made a visit to a series of these harbours, and we had a succession of reports by the harbour engineers. The conclusions arrived at were the result of a very close examination of the common needs of those islands, and the possibility of work to be done there. My hon. Friend must not suppose that the care of the Government for the harbours of Ireland which is shown in harbour works and public expenditure in all quarters of Ireland has in any way been relaxed. The Board of Works has been active, and if any action can be taken during the War it will be taken. What is more relevant now is the case of the smaller harbours in particular, and these will admit of a decision at the right time. Reference was made to the Commission on Industrial Research, and regret was expressed that its work had been greatly extended. May I point out that the work which has been done is preliminary, and many inquiries on the subject have been conducted in Ireland on this question.

Captain SHEEHAN

There is no Irish representative on that Commission.

Mr. DUKE

On the Sub-committees I think there are, and especially the Committee which is dealing with the question of fuel.

Captain SHEEHAN

The right hon. Gentleman has picked upon the only one.

Mr. DUKE

The interests of Ireland have not been neglected in this respect, but it must be remembered that industrial and scientific research is a very wide subject, and it deals with the possible utilisation of electric power from those broad waterways in Ireland with which we are so familiar. Then there is the question of fuel and what can be done by utilising the peat deposits. When you put an alloy into the turf bog without having made quite sure of all the interests involved, you might as well put your hand into the finest hornet's nest you could conceive. The personal interests of the people of the countryside are necessarily involved in the turf rights, and how you are going to reconcile those rights when you are dealing with a vast amount of raw material for industry is a question which will require a good deal more consideration than it has received in some quarters up to the present time. Allusions have been made to the mineral resources of Ireland and to the smallness of the deposits of coal. Research has already discovered mineral deposits which were previously unknown, and steps have been taken to resume mining operations in mineral areas where wealth has been produced in past times. We have just completed one railway for the service of an Irish colliery, and others have been authorised. In another quarter of the country my right hon. Friend and I are hoping to be able to find some means of ascertaining—I hope affirmatively—whether or not there are at present beneath the soil mineral resources to an extent and value which has not hitherto been supposed to exist. I will not say anything more upon that point, because I might bring out quite a tribe of claimants. It is not proper to expend public money merely that personal interests may benefit. If we are able to take the steps which we have in view, we hope to take care that they are steps for the benefit of the community at large and for the immediate benefit of the people in Ireland.

With regard to the city of Dublin and the city of Cork, where I know from personal observation that my hon. and gallant Friend has done yeoman service in dealing with this question of housing, I must admit that there is a state of things existing in the places which have been mentioned, and some of the smaller towns, which would move the heart of a miser. There are worse slums in some of the little country towns in Ireland than I could have supposed to exist. With regard to the city of Dublin, which has so much in its character to command attention, you cannot live in Dublin without realising that at the root of a great part of the trouble are the conditions of housing which have supervened upon the common life of the community, and out of which there arises a state of things which the people of Dublin, without the help of the State, cannot ameliorate or bring to a satisfactory conclusion. I secured the consent some time ago of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to carry out certain housing schemes in Dublin on the part of the corporation, but they are a mere bagatelle compared with what is required, but they show a readiness and a desire to deal with these matters as occasions arose.

One of the most capable of all the inspectors of the Local Government Board has been engaged in the investigation of the state of housing in Dublin. Shortly we shall have all the material for dealing fully and finally with this question with regard to the provincial towns, large and small. The facts in regard to several towns have been ascertained, and the Departments concerned have made Reports as to the kind of work that is necessary. My hon. and gallant Friend asks how much are you going to do? On a question where you want millions of expenditure, I would like to remind the hon. Member that it is not the surest way of getting the money to press the matter when you have a war expenditure of six millions pounds or seven millions pounds per day. Plans will be ready, and the method of affording public aid where public aid is required will not only be complete but sufficient, and when the time comes the public resources can be devoted to the fighting of the sources of trouble and evil at home instead of the enemy abroad. I am happy to think that it is the intention of His Majesty's Government, and so far as I am concerned it is certainly my firm resolution, that Irishmen shall participate to the full extent to which their country is entitled in whatever schemes of expenditure are finally resolved upon, and that Irishmen shall decide within Ireland how the money which is provided ought to be spent.

Mr. McKEAN

I should have liked to reply here and now to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, but as other hon. Members who intended to speak have agreed not to do so for certain reasons I have agreed also. I was not aware that this subject was to be raised. The Chief Secretary knows that I feel very strongly about it, and he is aware that I spent half an hour in his room suggesting to him the idea of a Reconstruction Commission for Ireland. My scheme was a really serious one, and not a make-belief like this reconstruction scheme, so far as it applies to Ireland. I thrashed the whole subject out, and then I got up and said that there was no use my remaining there any longer. Having regard to the fact that I raised this question with him in his room more than six weeks ago, I want to have an opportunity at the earliest possible date of replying to the speech that he has just delivered, and I want to know if he will be present here on Thursday, when I propose to make my reply?

Mr. DUKE

I am never quite sure of my movements as between London and Dublin, but, presuming that I am here, I shall be happy to be at the service of the hon. Member.

Mr. McKEAN

Any day will suit me as long as I have an opportunity.

Mr. DUKE

I do not dispose of the time of the House.

Mr. McKEAN

I know; but the right hon. Gentleman disposes more or less of his own time, and I want to give him notice that I shall reply to him on Thursday, or as soon afterwards as is possible.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow (Wednesday).