HC Deb 13 June 1918 vol 106 cc2467-80

Order for consideration of the Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), read.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, "That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of Clauses 4 and 5."

There was some discussion in the Grand Committee about certain Amendments, and the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill promised to consider them on Report stage. There was some question as to whether or not it was possible to move them, and it was agreed that the Bill should be recommitted.

7.0 P.M

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Prothero)

I have no objection to re-committal. Of course, it does not commit me in respect of the Amendments moved.

Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[Mr. J. Hope.]

Bill accordingly considered in Committee.

[MR. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 4.—(Provisions as to Bating.)

(2)The powers of a commission of sewers or of a drainage board constituted under the principal Act or this Act shall include, and shall be deemed always to have included, powers of levying drainage rates on the basis of acreage or on the basis of annual value of the lands liable to be rated.

(2) An Order made under this Act may pro vide for differential rating of part of any drainage district (whether constituted under the principal Act or this Act), or any area within the limits of a commission of sewers, and for total or partial exemption of buildings, railways, canals, inland navigations or any other special class of land within the district or area.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words: Provided that it shall not be lawful to rate any railway, dock, canal, or navigation company at a higher amount than so much of the land immediately adjoining such railway, dock, canal, or navigation as may be situate within the jurisdiction of the Commissioners and drainage boards, respectively, and in case any of the lands immediately adjoining shall be rated at different amounts then the mean amount at which all of the said adjoining lands within a distance of four hundred yards on each side of the railway, dock, canal, or navigation, as the case may be, shall be so rated shall be the amount at which such railway, dock, canal, ornavigation company shall be rated in respect of the lands in their occupation. Power is given in the Clause to do this, and it has been done on many occasions. I think the right hon. Gentleman knows the cases where it has been done. It was done in the Land Drainage Provisional Order Act, 1912, and it has been done on other occasions. The Amendment is very simple.

Mr. PROTHERO

I think it is very possible that cases might occur in which the proposed basis of rating would he quite fair and reasonable, but, on the other hand, there are cases where railways would be so materially affected by the drainage of flood water that I cannot accept the Amendment, because I think the drainage to prevent flood might be so materially beneficial to the railway company to justify rating on a higher basis. This Amendment will alter the rating powers at present possessed by existing commissioners of sewers, and drainage boards. As regards the new drainage authorities, I cannot accept the limitation, for the reasons I have just given. I may add that, if any Order proposes a basis of rating which the railway or other body considers inequitable, they have the opportunity of protesting, and their petition would be dealt with on its merits at the time when the Order is being prepared.

Sir F. BANBURY

I am aware of that; but the objection to that is that it will entail unnecessary trouble and expense both to the drainage authorities and to the various companies which are covered by my Amendment, because it is evident that they will have to exercise that power of objection which they have, and which they would not have to do if my Amendment were accepted. This provision has been put into several new drainage Acts, and I am sorry that the President cannot accept. However, I suppose it is useless to press it; therefore, under the circumstances, I will not go to a Division. But I would rather not withdraw.

Mr. BRUNNER

May I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to this point, that if he looks at the title of the Bill he will see that it relates to the drainage of agricultural land. The legal advisers of the railways might be able to say that under such a title as that it would not be possible to rate the buildings or land of any railway, dock, canal, ornavigation company. The word "agricultural" in the title is a pure mistake, and that point may be raised by a clever lawyer. Therefore, it seems to me that the whole provision as to rating in Clause 4 might be rendered nugatory.

Amendment negatived.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 5. — (Powers of Local Authorities to Contribute to Drainage Expenses.)

Where it is shown to the satisfaction of the Local Government Board that the execution or maintenance of any drainage works is desirable in the interests of the public health of any area, or for the protection or better enjoyment of any highways, the Board may authorise the local authority of the district for the purposes of the Public Health Act, 1875, in which the area to be benefited is situated, or the highway authority, as the case may be, to contribute or undertake to contribute to the expenses of the execution or maintenance of the drainage works by a drainage authority, and may direct how and out of what fund or rate such contributions may be defrayed.

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move, after the word "authority" ["drainage authority"], to insert the words "such an amount as the Local Government Board, having regard to the public benefit derived there from, may sanction."

Mr. RAFFAN

I should like to acknowledge the courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman in meeting the point which I raised on Second Reading.

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move, as an Amendment to my proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "Local Government."

This is really to prevent confusion. The Local Government Board is the only Board spoken of in the Clause, and if the words "Local Government Board" were repeated it would make the word "Board" in the middle of the Clause ambiguous.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words, Provided that in the case of a rural district council such contributions shall be defrayed as special expenses. There are a certain number of people who are subject to a lower rate if the rate is called drainage special expenses. The exemptions are The owner of any tithes, or of any tithe commutation rent-charge, or the occupier of any land used as arable meadow or pasture ground only, or as woodlands, market gardens, or nursery grounds, and the occupier of any land covered with water, or used as a canal or towing-path for the same, or as a railway constructed under the powers of any Act of Parment for public conveyance, and it is provided that they shall, where a special assessment is made for the purpose of such rate, be assessed in respect of one-fourth part only of the rateable value thereof, or where no special assessment is made, shall pay in respect of the said property one-fourth part only of the rate in the pound payable in respect of houses and other property. The Amendment would secure that the privilege which these people already have should be preserved, and I trust the right hon. Gentleman will accept it. On the Committee stage he said that he was afraid he could not accept it without the consent of the President of the Local Government Board. I see the President of the Local Government Board here. Perhaps he has come down to say that after consideration he is prepared to recommend that the Amendment be accepted.

Mr. PROTHERO

The expenses referred to relate to contributions by the sanitary authority for the benefit of drainage works and contributions by the highway authority for the benefit of the highways. The general rule under the Local Government Act is that the highways expenses incurred by a rural district council shall be defrayed as general expenses. I do not see why that rule should not prevail, subject always to the discretion of the Local Government Board. The Local Government Board have the discretion to say whether the expenses should be treated as general expenses or as special expenses. They still retain that power, and that discretionary power is given in a great mass of legislation, the Housing. and Town Planning Act, for instance. What we want is to preserve the discretion of the Local Government Board. I think the right hon. Gentleman may be satisfied with that discretion. That that discretion has been fairly exercised is, I believe, the universal experience.

Mr. BOOTH

I do not think that the explanation given by the right hon. Baronet as to what is meant by special expenses is quite correct. I have always understood it, as one who has taken part in these local bodies, that special expenses are levied on a particular township and that a general rate is levied on the whole of the rural district area. The right hon. Baronet seemed to be under the idea that he was differentiating between different ratepayers in the same township, but I think if his Amendment were carried it would only have the effect of differentiating between townships. That may be right or it may be wrong. I think it would be better not to put this Amendment in, but to leave the rural district councils to be checked by the Local Government Board.

Amendment negatived.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported; as amended (in Committee and on re-committal), considered.

Mr. SPEAKER

The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Northwich (Mr. Brunner) [a new Clause (Amendment of Principal Act)— The words 'for agricultural purposes ' in the title and preamble respectively of the principal Act are hereby repealed"] would extend the scope of this Bill beyond the title of it and beyond the purpose for which it was passed on the Second Reading. If it has any effect at all, the effect of the Amendment on the Preamble of the original Act of 1861 would be, I presume, to make the Act of 1861 applicable to all sorts of purposes beyond agricultural purposes. That seems to me to be beyond the scope of this Bill, and, therefore, it is out of order.

Mr. BRUNNER

I submit that the removal of these words will have only the effect on the Act of 1861 of correcting a mistake. The whole of the procedure of the Act is such that agriculture is not mentioned, neither in the body of the Act nor in any Act upon which that Act of 1861 is founded. I think, Mr. Speaker, if you inquire from the President of the Board of Agriculture, you will ascertain that there is rating not only for agricultural land, but upon railways and buildings; in fact, on all property within the area, and, therefore, the whole scope of the drainage legislation refers to all kinds of property other than agricultural property.

Mr. SPEAKER

If the Act has been applied beyond agricultural purposes there is no necessity for altering the Preamble. Anyhow, whatever may be the facts of the case, I do not think the Amendment can be made by this Bill.

Clause 1. — (Power to make. Orders Constituting Drainage Districts, Etc.)

(1) Subjects in the case of opposed Orders to confirmation by Parliament in manner provided by the First Schedule to this Act, the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may by Order—

  1. (a) constitute any area a separate drainage district for the purposes of Part II. of the Land Drainage Act, 1861 (in this Act referred to as the principal Act), and provide for the constitution of the drainage board for the district and the appointment or election of the members thereof;
    2. 2473
  2. (b) alter the boundaries of any drainage district constituted under the principal Act or this Act or any local Act, or the limits of any commission of sewers;
  3. (C) define the limits of any commission of sewers;
  4. (d) confer on any drainage authority such additional powers of levying drainage rates or borrowing powers as may be necessary or expedient, or alter or supplement in any other respect the provisions of any local Act or of any award made under any such Act where in the opinion of the Board such alterations or supplemental provisions are necessary or expedient for enabling the area for the benefit of which drainage works are authorised by the local Act or award to be drained effectually.

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), after the word "and" ["and provide"], to insert the words include therein the whole or any part of any existing drainage area and. I move these words to remove an ambiguity, which apparently prevailed in the minds of some hon. Members as to whether there was power to include as well as to constitute a separate drainage area. I think that the words as they stand do cover this, but we want to remove any ambiguity.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In paragraph (b) leave out the words "district constituted under the principal Act, or this Act, or any local Act, or the limits of any Commissions of Sewers," and insert instead thereof the word "area."— [Mr. Prothero.]

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert (2) any Order under this Section may contain any incidental, consequential or supplemental provisions which appear to be necessary or proper for the purposes of the Order. I move this Amendment to carry out my promise to the hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Major Lane-Fox).

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move, after the words last added, to insert (2) Where the council of a county or county borough in which the drainage area of any drainage authority is situate, or if such area is situated is more than one county or county borough, the councils thereof present a petition to the Board for the purpose the Board may by a like Order, made after consultation with the Local Government Board, transfer to the council or councils the powers, duties, property, and obligations of the drainage authority, and thereupon the council or councils shall become the drainage authority for the area for the purposes of this Act, and any expenses incurred by the council or councils as such authority shall be defrayed under and in accordance with the powers so transferred and not in any other manner. There is a power somewhat similar in scope in Section 10 of the Local Government Act, 1888, but after consultation with the Local Government Board we thought it might be convenient to deal with the matter by Order under this Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2. — (Procedure for the making of Orders.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may on the receipt of such a petition as is hereinafter mentioned, or, in the case of the constitution of a separate drainage district or of the alteration of the drainage area of any drainage authority, on their own initiative without any petition, after making such inquiries as they think necessary, prepare a draft Order to carry the petition into effect, or as the case may be, to constitute the district or alter the area.

(4) An Order constituting an area a separate drainage district or including in any drainage district any drainage area or any part of any drainage area shall not be made if within the prescribed period after publication of the draft Order the proprietors of one-third of the area signify to the Board their objection to the making of the Order.

(5) An Order altering the boundaries of a drainage area shall not be made without the consent of the drainage authority for the area, or if within the prescribed period after the publication of the draft Order the proprietors of one-third of the area proposed to be added to or excluded from the drainage area signify to the Board their objection to the making of the Order.

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "necessary," to insert the words, and after consultation with the Council of any county or county borough affected by the proposed Order, or any committee thereof appointed for the purpose. This Amendment is proposed to meet the views of the Town Planning Association. It gives them what they ask for.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In. Subsection (4), leave out the word "area" ["area signifies"], and insert instead thereof the words "proposed drainage district." — [Mr. Prothero.]

Sir F. BANBURY

I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), after the words "one-third;" to insert the words "in rateable value." You might have a certain number of people who have really a very limited financial interest in the district coming forward with an objection to the Order, and the insertion of these words will ensure that the one-third who will come forward shall be people who represent to a considerable extent either acreage or value in the district.

Mr. PROTHERO

The Bill in its present form follows the Act of 1861. it provides for the total or partial exemption of buildings, railways, and so forth, and enables drainage rates to be raised on an acreage basis. The rateable value is, therefore, by no means necessarily an index to the proportional interest affected, and it is on that ground that I prefer the existing principle.

Mr. BOOTH

While I think that the right hon. Gentleman might well say that the rateable value is not necessarily a correct basis, neither is acreage. A large proportion of a particular township might easily be bog or moorland, and a certain part which was really affected might be of an entirely different character. I can quite see that it is difficult to say whether it should be acreage or rateable value. In some cases rateable value would certainly be much better, if there is an average cultivation, assuming it is all agricultural, or if it is residential, and it is evenly distributed with farms of something like the same value. But if there happens to be a very poor section of the area of no particular value, with people on it of no particular account, it might very easily have an importance out of all proportion to their real wealth, ability, knowledge, and their real interest in the question. But you cannot take it both ways, and perhaps it would limit it too much to say one-third of the rateable value, and therefore I think that of the two we should follow the wording of the Minister in charge.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (5), after the word "area" ["area shall"], insert the words, or including in any drainage district any part of a drainage area." — [Mr. Prothero.]

Clause 3. — (Expenses of Making the Order.)

(1) The expenses of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and, if and so far as the Order so directs, the expenses of the petitioners, in relation to the making or confirmation of an Order, shall be defrayed as follows:

(a) Where a petition has been presented for the Order and the Order is made and comes into force, then—

  1. (i) if the Order is made on the petition for the constitution of a separate drainage district, the expenses shall be a first charge on the rates leviable in the district constituted by the Order;
  2. (ii) if the Order is made on a petition for the alteration or definition of the boundaries of a drainage area, the expenses shall be a first charge on the drainage rates leviable by the drainage authority in the area as altered or defined by the Order, or where more than one area is so altered on the drainage rates leviable within those areas in such proportions as the Board direct;
  3. (iii) if the Order is made on the petition of a drainage authority for altering or supplementing the powers conferred on the drainage authority by a, local Act or award the expenses shall be a first charge on the drainage rates leviable by the drainage authority.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (a, i), leave out the word "the" ["the Order"], and insert instead thereof the word "an."

In paragraph (a, iii.), leave out the words "the petition of a drainage authority," and insert instead thereof the words "a petition."

At the end of paragraph (a, iii.) insert the words, (iv) if an Order is made on a petition for the transfer to the Council of a county or county borough or to two or more such Councils of the powers, duties, property and obligations of a drainage authority by the petitioners." — [Mr. Prothero.]

Clause 6. —(Arrangements between Drainage Authorities.)

Any drainage board constituted under the principal Act or this Act, or any commission of sewers, may with the consent of the drainage authority of any adjoining drainage area execute and maintain in that adjoining area any works which the drainage board or commission might execute or maintain within their own area on such terms as to payment or otherwise as may be agreed on between such board or commission and the drainage authority, or may agree to contribute to the expense of the execution or maintenance of any works by the drainage authority of any adjoining drainage area, and any expense incurred by any such drainage board or commission of sewers under this Section shall be defrayed as if the expense had been incurred in their own drainage area.

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move to leave out the words "board constituted under the principal or this Act or any commission of sewers," and to insert instead thereof the word "authority."

This is to extend the powers conferred upon drainage boards and commissioners of sewers to drainage authorities under local Acts that are otherwise omitted. This is really in a way a drafting Amendment, because while we are dealing in the body of the Act with drainage authorities under local Acts, they are, as this Clause at present stands, unable to enter into arrangements with other drainage authorities.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

Leave out the words "drainage board or commission," and insert instead thereof the words "first mentioned drainage authority."

Leave out the words "such board or commission and the drainage authority," and insert instead thereof the words "drainage authorities."

Leave out the words "such drainage board or commission of sewers," and insert instead thereof the words "drainage authority." — [Mr. prothero.]

Clause 11. — (Expenses of Councils.)

Any sums payable under this Act by the council of a county or county borough shall, in the case of a county, be paid out of the county fund and, in the case of a county borough, out of the borough fund or rate.

Amendments made:

At the beginning, insert the words "Except as otherwise expressly provided by the Act."

After the word "borough" ["borough shall"], insert the words "be paid." — [Mr. Prothero.]

Clause 13. —(Definitions.)

For the purposes of this Part of this Act, unless the context otherwise requires— The expression "navigation authority" means any person or body of persons havings powers under any Act of Parliament to work or maintain an inland navigation.

Amendment made: Leave out the word "an" ["an inland"], and insert instead thereof the words "a canal or other." — [Mr. Prothero.]

Clause 15. — (Powers of Board to Enforce Performance of Duties.)

(1) For the purpose of enforcing in relation to agricultural land any liability to repair which is enforceable under Section fifteen of the Sewers Act, 1833, any officer appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may exercise on behalf of the Board the powers conferred by that Section on an officer appointed by a Court of Sewers.

(2) Where, in the opinion of the Board, any agricultural land is injured or likely to be injured by flooding or inadequate drainage which might be remedied wholly or partially by the exercise of drainage powers which are conferred by any general or local Act or an order having the force of an Act of Parliament, or by any award made under any Act, or by any commission of sewers, and which are not being exercised or, in the opinion of the Board, are being insufficiently exercised, the Board may exercise any such power and also any power conferred by any such Act, order, award, or commission for defraying the expenses so incurred or for any purpose incidental to the exercise of any such power: Provided that this Sub-section shall not apply to powers conferred upon any railway or canal company for the purposes of their undertaking.

Mr. SPEAKER

The next two Amendments— [in Sub-sections (1) and (2), to leave out the word "agricultural" (Mr. Brunner)] —are out of order.

Mr. BRUNNER

The first Amendment seems to me to be in order, because the Sewers Act of 1833 has no reference to agricultural land, and the point might possibly be taken that the officer to be appointed by the Board of Agriculture would have no authority over any land which was not agricultural, and yet as to which there was a liability for repair under Section 15 of the Sewers Act of 1833. The President of the Board of Agriculture agrees that the omission of the word "agricultural" there does not extend the scope of the Bill.

Mr. SPEAKER

This Bill is to make further provision for the drainage of agricultural land, and this Clause says, for the purpose of enforcing in relation to the cultivation of agricultural land any liability to repair which is enforceable under Section 15 of the Sewers Act, 1833, and so forth, and I cannot help thinking that the proposal to leave out the word "agricultural" would extend very largely the scope of the Bill, If the President tells me that I am wrong, I shall be glad to withdraw my opinion.

Mr. PROTHERO

I think, Sir, that you are right.

Clause 16. — (Schemes for Drainage of Small Areas.)

(2) Before executing any works under this Section the Board shall prepare a draft scheme stating:

  1. (a) the works proposed to be executed;
  2. (b) the area to be improved thereby;
  3. (c) the estimated cost of the execution of the works and the maximum amount to be recoverable by the Board in respect of the costs thereof;
  4. (d) the manner in which the expenses of executing and maintaining the works are to be apportioned amongst the lands comprised in the area; 2479 and shall give to the owners and occupiers of land comprised within the area notice in the prescribed manner of the making of the draft scheme, and of the place where it can be inspected and of the time within which objections to the scheme may be presented to the Board, and the Board shall, before settling the scheme, consider any objections which may have been duly made.

(5) Any expenses incurred by the Board under this Section in the execution of drainage works to an amount not exceeding the amount declared by the scheme to be the maximum amount of expenses recoverable by them, or in maintaining any such works, shall be recoverable by the Board in a summary manner from the several owners of the lands to which the scheme relates according to the apportionment in the scheme:

Provided that if any owner so requires in writing the sum payable by him shall be recoverable by the Board by means of a rate to be made and levied by the Board in like manner, subject to the like provisions and with the like incidence, as are applicable in the case of a private improvement rate for private improvement expenses incurred by a local authority under the Public Health Act, 1875, but the local authority shall, if so required by the Board, collect the rate and pay over the proceeds to the Board after deducting such reasonable costs of collection as may be agreed with the Board, or, in default of agreement, settled by the Local Government Board.

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "area" ["area notice "], to insert the words, and to any navigation authority or other body or person appearing to the Board to be affected by the scheme. This Amendment is moved in accordance with the promise given to the hon. and Gallant Member for the Epping Division (General Colvin).

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. PROTHERO

I beg to move, in Subjection! (5), after "1875" [" Public Health Act, 1875,"], to insert the words with this qualification, that the Board shall, on the application of the owner or occupier of any land subject to the rate, determine the proportion of the rate to be borne by them respectively, having regard to the benefit derived from the work, the contract of tenancy, and all other circumstances of the case. This is rather an important Amendment. By the Bill as it stands the rate imposed is to cover the expenditure on the drainage improvements, and it would, like all other private improvement rates, be paid in the first instance by the occupier, who would be entitled to deduct from the rent three-fourths of the rate. The greater number of farms in England and Wales are held on annual agreements, and there would therefore be very little practical difficulty under an annual agreement of getting an adjustment between the owner and the occupier. But where there is land held on lease for a number of years, in those cases it may well be that the arrangement for a deduction of three-fourths of the rate would be inadequate, having regard to the benefit which is derived, and the point of the Amendment is that, in such a case, application may be made to the Board to adjust the matter on an equitable basis.

Mr. D. WHITE

This Amendment deals with rather an important point raised in Committee, and I was one of those who raised it. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Agriculture does not see his way to meet us in a much larger way, and that is to make this charge a first charge on the land; still, I should like to express our appreciation of the way in which he has met this point.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: Leave out the words "shall, if so required by," and insert instead thereof the words "may on the application of." — [Mr. Prothero.]

Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.