§ Mr. SWIFT MacNEILLPerhaps you will allow me, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to call attention to a slight incident which arose last night. It is within the recollection of the House that at ten minutes past eleven last night I moved that the Chairman of Committees do report Progress and ask leave to sit again, and I then stated that my reason for moving that was that there was an important Vote, a sum of £500,000 in addition to the sum already voted for the Secret Service Fund, as a Supplementary Estimate: I said that a sum of that kind would require earnest discussion, and I then said that if the Government would be good enough to allow this Vote—I said it distinctly, and I am within the recollection of the House—to be postponed and taken the first thing to-day, we, so far as we on the Irish Benches were concerned, would not oppose the other measures that were being passed in accordance with the right hon. Gentleman's programme for that evening. Everyone seemed to hear me, but the right hon. Gentleman did not apprehend what I wished. He did not hear it, and when the Orders of the Day were called, this Vote was put down, I believe, for Tuesday. The right hon. Gentleman, not hearing the understanding that was made with me, most courteously called upon me and explained to me all the circumstances. I understood, and I understand now, that it was purely a mistake and a misapprehension on his part. He told me with great kindness and candour that it would be completely contrary, now that the House had risen, for an Order of the Day to be placed out of the position to which it had been referred by, technically, the Resolution of the House.
That is all right, but now what has happened is this. This Estimate which would have been debated to-day first thing is now put off until, I think, third or fourth on the list of Tuesday. As you know, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Tuesday is the day of the guillotine. The House automatically proceeds to the guillotine at ten o'clock, and it is almost certain that this sum of £500,000 for the Secret Service-Fund, a new and exhorbitant sum on which everyone of us wants to say something 2168 and of which some of us know something, will be guillotined. I know the right hon. Gentleman is quite incapable of a manœuvre of that kind, and it would be almost in accordance with the general sense of the House if he would kindly place it as the first Order of the Day on Tuesday as it would have been the first Order of the Day to-day had it not been for his unfortunate misapprehension of what I said. I generally make myself pretty clear, and I am sorry I was obscure on this occasion.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI am sorry to say there was a misunderstanding for which, perhaps, I am partly responsible, but the hon. Member will not feel offended when I say that the kind of speech he was making at that time is not listened to by me with the same care as would an ordinary argumentative speech.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI heard that part. I quite admit that the misunderstanding was at least partly mine, and I would gladly have corrected it if I could, but it did not rest with me. By the time the hon. Member spoke to me it had been put down to be taken on Tuesday, and Mr. Speaker said it was impossible to alter it. I shall be glad to do what I can to put the matter right. As regards taking it as the first Order, that is not in my power, because we have given this pledge on the express application of the Front Opposition Bench, and they would not consent to it being taken first. This Vote can, however, be taken as the second Order, and I will propose, if that will help the hon. Member, to move a special Resolution on Tuesday making the guillotine fall at eleven o'clock instead of at ten, and I will if necessary take the same step on Wednesday, so that I am sure between the two days there will be an opportunity of discussing it.
§ Mr. GULLANDThere was some conversation on this matter last night, and I quite appreciate that this trouble is due to a misunderstanding, and I think that what the right hon. Gentleman has suggested is fair so far as it goes. I certainly will insist that the Shipbuilding Vote should be the first Order on Tuesday, as was announced yesterday, and that on Wednesday the first Order should be the Board of Trade Vote. These two must stand, but I 2169 think what the right hon. Gentleman suggests, that he should give an extra hour on both days if necessary, is fair. I should like to bring to his attention that not only is a discussion desired on the Vote in which the hon. Member for South Donegal is interested, but also on the other Supplementary Estimate. There is a very important Vote for the Ministry of Information, for which I may say we have been asking all the Session, but as there was no Vote in the ordinary Estimates for that there has been no opportunity at all, and I think the right hon. Gentleman will see that a mere half-hour at the end of the day is not a very sufficient amount of time in which to discuss so extraordinary important a Vote as that for the Ministry of Information. I do not know how my hon. Friends who asked for this Vote, and who are sublimely oblivious of the fact that it is not coming on to-day, will regard the right hon. Gentleman's proposal. I have had no opportunity of consulting them, but I should like to ask whether all these Estimates will be embodied in the Consolidated Fund Bill. My recollection is that at this time last year they were not, and that only the Vote of Credit was included in the Consolidated Fund Bill, the other Votes being held over till the Appropriation Bill in the autumn. If these Votes are included in the Bill, then an opportunity for discussing these points will arise on the Second Reading of that Bill, and also on the Third Reading. I know, as a rule, there are plenty of other topics, but still it would give an opportunity, somehow or other, for these matters to be discussed. I shall be glad if the right hon. Gentleman can tell us about that.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI shall be glad to do anything that is possible to meet the wishes of my right hon. Friend and of the House. I think it is possible that, with the extra hour on both days next week, time will be found, especially as I believe it is not anticipated that the Board of Trade Vote will take the whole day on Wednesday; but if that should not be so, I am willing to take either of these steps, whichever the right hon. Gentleman prefers, either to put it in the Consolidated Fund Bill, which would enable it to be discussed on the subsequent stages of that Bill, or not to put it at all, which would enable it to be discussed when we resume after the Recess.
§ Mr. HOGGEMay I ask a question in regard to the Vote for the Ministry of Information? This is an entirely new Ministry, on which the House has never had any opportunity at all to discuss really what the Ministry is for. Apart altogether from the granting of money for the purposes of the Ministry of Information, many of us waited here last night, and would have been prepared to sit through the whole night if necessary, to reach that particular Vote. It is a new Ministry, and the Minister is not in this House, and if we do not get an opportunity on Tuesday, as is very likely——
§ Mr. BONAR LAWWednesday.
§ Mr. HOGGEBut on Wednesday we begin with the Board of Trade Vote, and we all know that that provides an opportunity for a very long discussion as a rule, and those of us who are not officially represented by anybody in this House always find a great difficulty to know where we come in. There is no opposition in this House, but my right hon. Friend gets up and says he has been asked by somebody on the Front Bench opposite to give a certain Vote for discussion. I do not know whom they represent. They are not in opposition; they are Members of the House and supporters of my right hon. Friend, and I do not see how they have any more right than any other Member to ask for a special Vote. My right hon. Friend accommodates some of his own supporters on the Front Bench opposite, but he ought to come to those who do not support him in order to find out what Votes are to be put down. We are the real Opposition in this House. I respectfully suggest to my right hon. Friend that the Government have no right to avoid a proper discussion on the Ministry of Information, and unless we get time this Vote will go through without any opportunity for discussing it.
§ Mr. KINGOn a point of Order, Sir. May I call your attention to the fact that the Ministry of Information Vote is marked on the Paper "New Service"? Some of us are not quite clear whether a new service can be taken without discussion under the guillotine, and I should like your ruling upon that point.
§ Mr. DILLONMy recollection is that after a prolonged Debate when these 2171 Resolutions were originally introduced, we succeeded in obtaining that concession, that no new service should be taken on an allotted day and included under the guillotine Resolution, and that if a new service was introduced it should be treated as free Supply, and not included in an allotted day. If that is so, the Government have no right to take this Vote at all.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWThe hon. Member is perfectly right. The Standing Order does not permit it to be taken, but I presume—and this is our proposal—that if we put down a Resolution asking it to be taken, that would be in order, if the House so wishes, on Tuesday or Wednesday. As regards the general question, I desire only to do what is for the convenience of the House. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) says he was ready to sit up all night, but we agreed to report Progress because it seemed to be the universal desire of the House. I have admitted there was a misunderstanding, and I am anxious to put it right. As to what the hon. Member said about my acceding to the views of my own supporters on the Front Bench opposite, I do not think he can complain about not coming in, because I believe he comes in every day. [Mr. DEVLIN: "Every night!"] Apart altogether from the question of who supports and who does not support the Government, I would point out that the majority of the Members must be taken into account, and, however important the hon. Member for East Edinburgh is, I cannot give time to him against the wishes of a much larger number of Members.
§ Mr. DEVLINWe are the only concrete Opposition. Why do not you consult us?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWWe are trying our best to meet the difficulty. If I am right in saying that this Resolution may be debated, then there will be a chance for the discussion of this Vote, which we by no means wish to avoid, either on Tuesday, which is not likely, or on Wednesday, which is more likely. If we can bring it into the Consolidated Fund Bill it can be discussed on the subsequent stages of that Bill, but if it is preferred to have a separate discussion by leaving it out of the Consolidated Fund Bill, the Vote will be put down when we resume after the Recess. I do not think more than that can be done.
§ Mr. S. MacNEILLDo I understand, as a plain man, that the Secret Service Supplementary Estimate will be the second Order of the day on Tuesday, and that if it be not reached on Tuesday it will be the second Order on Wednesday? And do I understand, further, that the right hon. Gentleman, who has means more or less of ruling the Debate and appropriating the time of the House, will so appropriate it in this way, so as to secure an adequate discussion of the Secret Service Fund?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI shall certainly do that so far as is in my power, it will be the second Order on Tuesday, and, if it is not taken on the Tuesday, it will be the second Order on Wednesday. I shall arrange for it on one or other of those days.
§ Mr. DEVLINCould not the right hon. Gentleman make it the first Order?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWThat is not possible, because of the pledges I have already given to my right hon. Friend.
§ Mr. GULLANDThat applies not only to the Vote in which my hon. Friend is interested, but to the other Votes.
§ Mr. HOGGECould not the difficulty be met by sitting on either Tuesday or Wednesday? Why not sit late on Tuesday, and provide time for the discussion of the Vote for the Ministry of Information, or on Wednesday?
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI cannot do that because of the course of business. I must say that I have done everything that is possible.
§ Ordered, That the Proceedings on the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Bill be not interupted this day at Five or Half-past Five of the, clock.—[Mr. Bonar Law.]