§ Subject to the provisions of this Section, Sub-section (3) of Section one of the Small Holding Colonies Act, 1916 (hereinafter referred to as "the principal Act"), which limits the area of the land which may be acquired by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for the purposes of that Section, shall have effect as if forty-five thousand acres were therein substituted for four thousand five hundred acres, twenty thousand acres for two thousand acres, and sixty thousand acres for six thousand acres and paragraph (c) of Section eleven of the principal Act, which limits the area of the land which may be acquired by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland for the purposes of the said Section one, shall have effect as if twenty thousand acres were therein substituted for two thousand acres:
§ Provided that where land which is to be acquired for the purposes of the said Section one could not, if this Act had not been passed, have been acquired for that purpose without making the total area of the land for the time being so acquired exceed the amount authorised to be so acquired, the land shall not be acquired otherwise than by taking the same on lease or by purchasing it on the terms that payment shall be made therefor by way of a rent-charge or other annual payment.
§
Lords Amendment: After the word "acres" ["six thousand acres"], insert the words,
Provided that for the purposes of the acquisition, equipment, and settlement of the area hereby authorised to be acquired by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Board may, as respects any county with the consent of the council of that county, employ that council as their agents and vest in them all the powers hereby or by the principal Act conferred upon them in addition to those vested in such council by virtue of the Small Holdings Act, 1908.
§ Lords Amendment read a second time.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir R. Winfrey)I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, after the word "all" ["all the powers"], to insert the words "or any of."
We have no objection to the Lords Amendment so far as it goes, but its acceptance must not be taken as any indication that the Board of Agriculture has at present any intention of delegating the management of these colonies. With that proviso, we propose to accept the Lords Amendment with one slight alteration.
§ Amendment to Lords Amendment agreed to.
1744§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment, as amended."
§ Sir J. SPEARI am glad the Government propose to accept this Amendment, for I certainly think that the county councils would be extremely valuable agents in carrying out the purposes of this measure. Those bodies already have done a great deal in promoting the provision of small holdings. They have the equipment, they have the agents, they have knowledge of the circumstances of the county and of the local requirements. I feel confident they will effect the desired objects and purposes of the Bill far better than any other agency could possibly do. But I did not quite catch the Parliamentary Secretary's remark. I hope he did not imply that the Board of Agriculture do not propose to give powers to the county councils to carry out the measure, because I certainly think that, subject to the over-ruling power of the Board of Agriculture, the county councils should be empowered to carry out the Bill. I know the chief purpose is to provide colonies. I think it has a very much greater prospect of making suitable provision for returned soldiers and sailors through the county councils than it would have through farm colonies. I believe that, in the first place, the county councils would be the means of settling men in the districts from which they came, and the men would greatly value the opportunity of becoming smallholders in the district in which they were born and bred, and in which probably their families had lived for generations. More than that, the advantage of small holdings for these men, suitably spread over the country, would, I think, afford them very much better prospects of success than would be the case if they were concentrated in large colonies. The men, many of them, would have a pension, and with 10 or 20 acres of ground would be able to keep a few cows, produce pigs and poultry, and carry on the various offices of husbandry in a small way, and would be able to utilise any surplus time they might have in earning wages in the employment of larger occupiers. It would be a mistake to suppose that these men will be able to make a living simply on 10 or 20 acres of land, except perhaps in the immediate vicinity of towns. But, generally speaking, they 1745 must have some other means of augmenting their livelihood. It would be a false kindness to plant these men on 10 or 20 acres of ground only. These men, to many of whom the country owes a debt of gratitude, which we all acknowledge, would be unable to support even a small holding unless some money could be advanced on loan by the county council to enable them to secure stock and make a start on the holding. I hope the intention of the board is that the county council shall have some funds from Imperial taxes for this purpose. It is a national liability and a national responsibility, and surely these bodies, which are elected and representative of the people, can be trusted to use Imperial funds, subject to the sanction of the Board of Agriculture, to the best advantage in promoting the interests and well-being of these men.
I think much greater success will attend the settling of soldiers and sailors through the county councils on the land than will be the case with very large colonies. To obtain land for large colonies means the dispossessing af a large number of farmers from their holdings. That is a very great hardship. No man likes to be turned out of the holding which he has acquired on the principle of supply and demand, and which he probably would be farming in a very proper way, but if the county councils are used as the agents that difficulty will be avoided. They would be able to acquire portions of land here and there for the purpose of providing small holdings, and although no farmer likes to part with a part of his farm, it is a much smaller grievance for him to have to part with 10 or 20 acres than to be turned out of his holding in order to get land for farm colonies. So that from every point of view, with that earnest desire to see that settlement of soldiers and sailors comfortably on the land, I firmly believe that it would be much more successful if carried out through the county councils than if we adopt the policy of farm colonies. This is certainly a step in the right direction. I hope this concession, if it may be so called, to local feeling through the county councils will not be made by the Board of Agriculture in any grudging spirit. I believe these bodies, in the way they have provided small holdings hitherto, have shown judgment and tact and a very fair amount of success. That entitles them to be trusted by the Government to do this great work, and I hope the Government will, from Imperial funds, provide 1746 the money, and then I believe there is every prospect of our soldiers and sailors being comfortably settled in small holdings. The one advantage in congregating men in colonies is that they will be able to co-operate. There is something in the British nature which makes us prefer individuality, and I am confident that these men will be happier on their 10 or 20 acres under their own management, with the utilisation of their pensions and the opportunity to carry on any other little industry, and they will be able to make a living and will be able to bring about that which we have been yearning for for many years—the increase of the rural population. We have been deploring the movement of the rural population into the towns—
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir D. Maclean)I do not quite see how that arises on this Amendment. It is quite a limited one, the hon. Member will, on reflection, agree. I cannot allow him to pursue that topic any further.
§ Sir J. SPEARI am very glad the Amendment has been accepted, for I am sure it will contribute to the successful provision of small holdings very much better than any other proposal that has been mentioned.
§ Major BARNSTONI am grateful that the hon. Gentleman has accepted the Amendment, but I very much wish he had not accepted it in the way he did, because it seemed to me that, having accepted it, he is not going to take much further notice of it. We who support it are just as anxious as anyone that all soldiers and sailors who have fought for this country and want to live on the land should have an opportunity of doing so. The whole point between us is the best machinery and the best and cheapest way to get them on the land and keep them there. And it seems to me, when you have county councils, which have been doing this work now for some years, while if you use the Board of Agriculture you would probably need a whole host of new officials—when the county councils have local knowledge of the needs of agriculture in the different counties, they are the bodies ready to hand to take on this work and will do it much better than it would be done by any board in London. I sincerely hope, though we have to thank the hon. Gentleman for accepting the Amendment, that he will 1747 think better of the proviso and that he will allow the county councils to manage these small holdings.
§ Captain Sir C. BATHURSTI am delighted to hear that the Board of Agriculture has decided to accept the Amendment, it being one which I myself put down for the Committee stage, but unfortunately I was not present to move it. I am just as anxious as the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill that this experiment in small holdings and colonies under direct Government management should be given a fair trial and, if possible, be attended with success. But two years ago, when the original Bill was before the House, it was stated explicitly and repeatedly that this scheme was merely an experiment, and that it would not be largely extended until its success had been demonstrated. The time has certainly not arrived when we can say with full confidence that the success of this colonisation experiment is fully assured, and in attempting to multiply the number of acres originally contemplated by no less than ten, it must be admitted that we are carrying the scheme beyond the experimental stage, possibly involving the country in a considerable expenditure, possibly setting up a somewhat expensive machine which does not at present exist, and possibly also not meeting altogether the requirements of the ex-soldiers and ex-sailors in the matter of land settlement. My anxiety with regard to this Amendment is founded upon the fact that I do not want to see our ex-soldiers fall between two stools. The powers of the county councils are at present suspended. We none of us know when they may be revived. In spite, I believe, of considerable pressure on the part of the Board of Agriculture, the Treasury has not yet seen its way to allow these powers to be revived, and, assuming that this scheme is not a success, the whole of our expressed aspirations for the future land settlement of our soldiers and sailors serving overseas will have been blown to the winds, and surely we shall have been guilty of something very much in the nature of deception of those who are dependent upon our efforts to provide them with the land settlement scheme which so many of them are looking forward to.
The Amendment comes to the House with the strong backing of the County Councils Association, and with, of course, a full realisation on their part of what has been achieved during the last ten years, 1748 allowing for the interruption of their powers during the War, and also the strong backing of the Central Chamber of Agriculture, both bodies of considerable experience and both very anxious that the county councils should, if necessary, be allowed to take up this work if the Government finds that it cannot with success carry it through without their intervention. The word "may" is a permissive word that does not involve the Board of Agriculture handing any of their powers under this Bill or the previous Bill over to the county councils if they feel they can successfully carry through their schemes without their agency. But it does give that alternative, without which the well-known desires of many of our ex-soldiers may not be satisfied. It gives that alternative which enables the existing agencies, which have grown up largely on the initiative of my hon. Friend, and the success of whose work is far above my anticipations, and, I imagine, his anticipations, an opportunity of carrying out the work for which they are well fitted on delegation from the Board of Agriculture, and to provide in a way for the ex-soldiers, which the ex-soldiers would infinitely prefer to the way contemplated by the Bill.
§ Mr. WATTThe House is in a peculiar position in dealing with this particular Amendment, because the Government have recommended its acceptance by the House, but saying at the same time that they do not intend to act upon it.
§ Sir R. WINFREYOh, no!
§ Mr. WATTAs I understood the hon. Member, this Amendment enables the Board of Agriculture to utilise the county councils as their agents and to vest in them all the powers they have got. The hon. Gentleman accepts this Amendment, but tells the House that the Board of Agriculture will not carry this out and that they will not delegate any of these powers to the county councils. Therefore, they are proposing to accept the Amendment and at the same time telling us they will reject it in action. In face of that the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken on behalf of agriculture have expressed their delight at this Amendment being accepted, although it is not going to be carried out. One hon. Member who drew attention to the point I am referring to said that if the Board of Agriculture started this system themselves instead of deputing it to the county councils to act as their agents 1749 there will be a new set of officials set up who will not only be new, to the job, but will have to acquire knowledge, while at the present moment there are in the employment of the county councils officials who are doing these duties who have had experience in the past, and who are much more likely to be more efficient than any new officials who may be set up. It may be possible yet for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture to withdraw what he said as to the intention of his Department not to carry out this Amendment, and to tell us quite frankly that he has changed his views, and that he proposes to have the county councils as agents in this matter and to utilise them and their officials.
§ Mr. BOOTHAs I understand this Amendment, it will lead to a little more elasticity in the working of this measure. If the county councils become the agents to carry out these powers, I think it is possible that the county councils may go different ways and have different ideas. I was rather sorry to hear from the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Watt) that the Government have set a face of adamant against any experiments by the county councils; but I was reassured, because the Parliamentary Secretary shook his head, and I took it to mean that he did not intend that this should be a dead letter. The reason why this commends itself to me is that some of the more progressive and enlightened county councils may set up a small holding colony to deal with tuberculous persons. The Parliamentary Secretary remembers that when the Bill was before the House I urged upon him that at any rate one of these colonies might well be devoted to the question of tuberculous soldiers.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThat does not arise on this Amendment.
§ Mr. BOOTHI think if you had listened—[HON. MEMBERS; "Order, order!"]—and had allowed me to pursue my point—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—I do not mean any discourtesy, and I am surprised that any hon. Members should think that for a moment. My point is that one of the county councils which has got this question in hand and is spending money upon it, if they exercise the powers vested in them, could establish a colony for tuberculous soldiers. That is why the Amendment commends itself to me. There is an opportunity, if this Amendment is sanc- 1750 tioned, for an experiment to be carried out. It will enable us, instead of having to go to the Board of Agriculture, to go to the county council as the agent and appeal to them to exercise the power vested in them. I am very hopeful that, at any rate, one of the county councils may be found enlightened enough and progressive enough and anxious to serve the public interests to utilise this Clause and the power which this Clause gives them in order to set up a colony for tuberculous soldiers. I do not wish to suggest that the whole of these small-holding colonies should be devoted to that purpose. I have always been modest in my requests, and I ask that one county council—
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI have allowed the point to be raised, but I cannot allow the subject to be enlarged upon.
§ Mr. BOOTHI am thankful to you for allowing me to make a passing reference. That is the only reason why I support the Amendment. If I thought that there would not be a county council likely to do this, I should vote against this Amendment. Therefore, I think the point I am raising is quite relevant because it influences my vote and I daresay the vote of other Members. It is because I see an opportunity for some county council to put in force these powers in the way I have suggested, which I think would be successful, and would lead to great reform, that I am glad the Government have seen their way to accept the Amendment.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Lords Amendment: Leave out the words "on the terms that payment shall be made therefor by way," and insert instead thereof the words "in consideration of the grant."
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ Mr. BOOTHI think we are entitled to know what is the exact bearing of this. Is it to be a drafting Amendment?
§ Sir R. WINFREYYes. I move that we agree with the Lords Amendment because it is purely a drafting Amendment.
§ Lords Amendment agreed to.
§ Lords Amendment: After the word ("payment") insert the words ("or by taking the same in feu").
1751§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ Sir C. BATHURSTI would like to be quite clear as to what this means. Is it introduced simply for the purpose of providing for Scottish conditions? Because if it were to apply to England, we have no knowledge of feu duties or similar Scottish expressions.
§ Sir R. WINFREYIt is purely Scottish.
§ Sir C. BATHURSTI have merely mentioned the matter so as to be satisfied that this is in fact the exact equivalent of the rent-charge contemplated under the English provisions, because it is obviously right that the conditions should be the same in both parts of the United Kingdom.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§
Lords Amendment: At end of Clause 1 add the words,
Provided also that no portion of the additional land authorised by this Act to be acquired by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be so acquired except after consultation with the chairman of the council of the county in which the land proposed to be acquired is situate, or with a committee of that council.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ Mr. BOOTHIt is quite clear that this is not a drafting Amendment. It is an Amendment of some substance, and we are entitled to an explanation from the Government as to why they accept it. Was this introduced as a Government Amendment in another place or how did it come to be accepted? It does not seem to be of any value. Very often in a county there are many more men interested in agriculture than the chairman of the county council, who may be a coal-owner, an engineer, or a tradesman. Why this distinction should be made, except as a sop to the county council, I cannot understand. I am never in favour of these things that are put in merely to get a Bill through or to silence somebody, or with some object of that kind. The only effect which this could have, it seems to me, would be to delay matters. To comply with this provision, I take it there would have to be some documentary evidence to show that this consultation had taken place, and that would mean correspondence, or something of the kind, which might delay matters.
§ Mr. WATTI expected that the Under-Secretary would have answered the ques- 1752 tions of my hon. Friend. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman recommends the House to accept this particular Amendment. It seems extraordinary that the Board of Agriculture should consent to a consultation with the chairman of the county council of a county in which the land proposed to be acquired is situated before they proceed to take the land. The effect, of course, is delay. It is hard to find any reasons for accepting this Amendment. It limits the powers of the Board when we are anxious to get ahead. Probably the other House was determined to have this particular Amendment, and the Board of Agriculture thought that rather than have a disturbance with that House they would let it go; but the effect is certainly to weaken the measure. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has a remarkable gift for silence. In that respect he differs from his chief, who has an extraordinary gift of fluency. Between them they strike a very happy average, but silence can be carried too far, and in this case I think that the hon. Gentleman ought to give an answer to my hon. Friend.
§ Sir R. WINFREYReally, the reason for this Amendment is plain. If county councils are at any time to be asked to look after these colonies, surely it is a reasonable and sensible thing to take them into consultation.
§ Question put, and agreed to.