HC Deb 17 July 1918 vol 108 cc1073-6
Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the House will sit on Friday?

Mr. BONAR LAW

If we get all the stages of the Bill which is under discussion to-day, I do not think it will be necessary for the House to meet on Friday.

Mr. PRINGLE

Will not the right hon. Gentleman give Friday for a discussion on the League of Nations?

Mr. BONAR LAW

If I thought that was the wish of the House, I should be very pleased to do so.

Mr. HOLT

I wish to ask you, Mr. Speaker, for some information in regard to the procedure of the House. If you look at the Order Paper you will sea a Notice of Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset and other hon. Members with regard to a Proclamation under the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887. That Act lays it down that if, within a period of fourteen days after the special Proclamation be laid before Parliament, an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament, praying that such special Proclamation shall not continue in force as to certain associations described therein, such Proclamation shall be deemed to have expired so far as it relates to such association or associations. Under Standing Order No. 1, proceedings made in pursuance of any Act of Parliament are not to be stopped by the operation of the Eleven o'clock Rule, but a Sessional Standing Order made at the beginning of this Session allocating the whole of the time of the House to the Government makes it impossible to move that Motion or any Motion of a similar kind. I wish to know whether that is correct?

Mr. KING

On that point may I respectfully call your attention to the terms of the Standing Order passed by this House on the 13th February this year: Ordered, That until the House otherwise determines, and so far as the House does not otherwise determine, on every day on which the House sits….at the conclusion of Government business, Mr. Speaker shall propose the Question, 'That this House do now adjourn.' The point I wish to ask you is this: The Standing Order contemplates this House determining whether any special exception shall be made to this Rule, not whether the Government should determine. It is the function of the House to decide, but as the matter appears to stand there is no possible occasion on which a private Member of this House can move that the House should exert the rights which it has under a Statute of the Realm. May I further ask, following upon the point raised by my hon. Friend, whether you will allow a Motion to be made under Rule 115, which raises the privileges of the House and does not necessitate a Notice of Motion—that the House, at the conclusion of Government business, proceed to consider this Order?

Mr. SPEAKER

I do not see how I can allow that. It would be a violation of all the Rules of the House.

Mr. KING

May I call attention, with due respect to Rule 115, which is about these Motions—there are quite a number of them—which may be made without notice? One of them is any Motion raising a question of the privilege of the House. Now it is one of our privileges, I contend, that under a Statute we may raise the question of this Proclamation—it is a privilege of the House. I ask you to rule that we may be entitled to move without notice a Motion that we proceed to the Motion on the Paper, which refers to one of these statutory privileges.

Mr. SPEAKER

I could not possibly hold that a Motion of that kind was a Motion of privilege. I am precluded by the Sessional Order which the hon. Member for North Somerset has read. It says: At the conclusion of Government business, Mr. Speaker shall propose the Question, 'That this House do now adjourn.' Therefore, when I reach the end of Government business I have to put that Question, and that appears to cut out the Motion standing to-day in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset and to cut out any Motion which any non-official Member puts down.

Mr. HOLT

On this point, may I draw your attention to the fact that Motions of the same character are contemplated under a very large number of Bills, and are regarded as a convenient arrangement? It particularly applies to the Military Service (No. 2) Act of this year, which provides that Every Order in Council made under this Act, other than an Order in Council made in pursuance of Section I thereof, and every Proclamation so made, shall be laid before each House of Parliament forthwith, and if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament, within fourteen days after the Order or Proclamation is laid before it, praying that the Order or Proclamation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the Order or Proclamation and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything done thereunder. That Clause was accepted by the Home Secretary as a concession to Members and to safeguard the control of the House over the possible extension of that Act to Ireland. The Home Secretary accepted this, and treated it very seriously, and finally he said that if the House would be prepared to take fourteen days that would give a sufficient opportunity for a Motion for an Address. I cannot think that when the Home Secretary said that he had it in his mind all the time that it was a great imposture and that there was really no opportunity of moving the Address at all, and I find it equally difficult to believe that so astute a gentleman and a lawyer has been caught in the same trap as ordinary private Members. Would it not be possible to obtain from the Home Secretary a statement as to how we should exercise the privileges which he quite willingly conferred upon us?

Mr. SPEAKER

Is that question addressed to me, or whom is it addressed to?

Mr. HOLT

I was respectfully asking you whether you could not ascertain from the Homo Secretary.

Mr. SPEAKER

I should invite the hon. Member to ascertain himself.

Mr. PRINGLE

Arising out of that question, I should like to ask the Leader of the House whether, in view of your interpretation of a Standing Order, the Government will not so modify the Standing Order as to allow the moving of an Address in such cases as that raised by my hon. Friend?

Mr. BONAR LAW

I am sure the House will remember the circumstances under which this Sessional Order was first made. It is obvious that it does greatly curtail the privileges of the House, but it was done mainly on the undertaking given when the Motion was first moved by my right hon. Friend opposite, and repeated since, that whenever there was a general desire in the House to discuss any question, the Government would find time for the purpose. I have repeated the promise myself, and am always ready to carry it out. That is, I think the best possible protection for the House. As regards the particular matter raised by the hon. Member, I would point out that he can raise it on the Adjournment.

Mr. PRINGLE

Would not the right hon. Gentleman consider that, as there is a limited period of time given to this Address, it would be very difficult to secure that general expression of opinion so as to have an Address proposed in this House in time.

Mr. BONAR LAW

I do not believe there is any substance in that. If there is any feeling in the House approaching a majority the House would certainly know.

Mr. PRINGLE

But we have no chance of arguing the question.

Mr. KING

In view of the offer made by the right hon. Gentleman that we may discuss it on the Adjournment to-night, will the Leader of the House refrain from moving the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule, which, if carried, would prevent any discussion.

Mr. BONAR LAW

I cannot promise to do that, but I would point out that the hon. Member can assist us in preventing that necessity arising.

Ordered, That the Proceedings on the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Bill, if under discussion at Eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Bonar Law.]