CLAUSE 4.—(Preparation and Submission of Schemes.) (Hansard, 15 July 1918)

Colonel Sir MARK SYKES
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the words, If any persons or bodies of persons interested in existing efficient schools or colleges, or proposing to provide and to staff with teachers any such school or college, are dissatisfied with the proposals of the local education authority when so published as aforesaid, or if the local education authority at any time after a request by any such persons or bodies of persons refuse to submit an amending scheme for the purpose of including in the original scheme any school or college so proposed to be provided and staffed with teachers, the persons or bodies of persons so dissatisfied or aggrieved by the refusal as aforesaid may appeal to the Board of Education, who shall hold a public inquiry for the purpose of deciding, as the case may be, whether the proposals of the local education authority are sufficient, or, in the event of such a refusal as aforesaid, whether an amending scheme should be submitted by the local education authority. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider this Amendment, and see if he cannot meet us in some degree upon this matter. The Amendment is conceived on the basis that the present Education Bill, when it becomes law, will have a tremendous influence on the whole of the future of the country, and, therefore, as several speakers have already declared on the First Reading, it is desirable that individual views, as far as possible, should be consulted. It appears to me that there are three elements interested in the education of the children of this country, and there are three points of view from which education can be regarded. Firstly, the 772 point of view of the parent—that is the individual point of view; secondly, the point of view of the local authorities—and that is the local point of view; and thirdly, the point of view I presume of the Board of Education, which really has the large and national side of the matter to take into consideration. I think it must be taken that each one of these elements have to take into consideration as much as possible the views and feelings of the other two. This particular Amendment is drafted for the purpose of enabling the Board of Education to decide in the event of their being a difference of opinion between the other two—that is the local education authority and the individual parent represented by bodies to which that individual parent belongs. I think the right hon. Gentleman should take into consideration the views of parents represented by bodies of individuals, because they represent a permanent element in the country.
Certain people will take a certain fixed view and will continue in that view, whereas the local authority is very often only representative of a transient view, or a view which is sometimes predominant and sometimes not, and if there is a difference of opinion between those two it is not unreasonable to suggest that the Board of Education, which must look at this matter from a wider aspect, should decide on the merits of the case in favour of one or the other. If this Amendment or its purpose is included in the Bill, the advantage will be that in future the local authority will take into consideration, or be more likely to take into consideration, the views of bodies of parents if they know there is a reasonable case and an opportunity of an appeal. Constantly these cases might arise if this proposal is not incorporated in the Bill. Consequently, if bodies of persons or parents or people representing individual views are taken into consideration, the right hon. Gentleman then attaches to education and secures for it a great amount of enthusiasm and individual effort which might otherwise not be included.
A third advantage I submit to the right hon. Gentleman is that the Board of Education will be made acquainted with matters upon which there may be a feeling which, if not dealt with in a just and reasonable way, and if passed over time after time, might give rise to a widespread agitation which might lead to one of those educational wrangles which have 773 done so much damage to education in the past. I submit that no unreasonable proposal is likely to be brought forward because it is to be a public inquiry, and it has to be decided by the Board of Education itself. Therefore this proposal is not likely to encourage people to make unreasonable appeals. If unreasonable appeals are made they can always be turned down after public inquiry, and then the reasons why they are turned down will be known to the public.

§ Sir STUART COATS
I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. FISHER
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has stated the case for his Amendment with great moderation, and he has brought forward some reasons in support of it which deserve to be carefully considered. Before dealing with the subject of the Amendment, let me point out two Clauses in the Bill which, I think, go a long way towards meeting the point which he has brought forward. Subsection (3) of Clause 4 lays down that A council in preparing schemes under this Act shall have regard to any existing supply of efficient or suitable schools or colleges not provided by local education authorities, and to any proposals to provide such schools or colleges. Let me also draw his attention to Subsection (9) of Clause 10— In considering what continuation school a young person shall be required to attend a local education authority shall have regard, as far as practicable, to any preference which a young person may express. Those two Clauses were inserted with a view of meeting the considerations which were urged by my hon. and gallant Friend during the Committee stage of the Bill, and I think he will admit that they go a very long way to meet him. What he is now asking for is that any body of persons offering to provide a continuation school shall have a right of public inquiry in case the local education authority does not see its way to accept that school. That is the point of his Amendment. We have to remember that the bodies of persons who are most likely to offer continuation schools will be employers of juvenile labour, who are desirous of reducing to the narrowest possible dimensions the loss of industrial power involved in the continuation class system. It put it to the House: Would there not be a practical danger in allowing every employer of juvenile labour to offer a school possibly under the most unreasonable conditions, and if that offer 774 were not accepted claim a right to public inquiry? As the Bill stands, my hon. and gallant Friend has every substantial guarantee that he may require. Let us assume that a body of persons has offered a site and building, and has offered, perhaps, as well to recommend teachers. Let us assume that it would be unreasonable on the part of the local education authority not to comply with that offer and not to accept it. Let us assume that it does decline to accept that school. What happens? The body so aggrieved will clearly write to the Board of Education; the Board of Education will enter into correspondence with the local education authority, and, if the Board of Education feels that the local education authority is using its discretion unwisely or unjustly, it will remonstrate with that authority and attempt to bring it into a better frame of mind. Everything substantial which my hon. and gallant Friend desires to obtain by this Amendment is, I believe, already conceded to him under the terms of the Bill as it exists, but I do submit that there would be a considerable danger in the practical and efficient working of this scheme if every employer of labour were given notice that he might obstruct the work, which is already difficult and hard for the local education authority in respect of the organisation of these new schools, by offering a school and then demanding the costly and lengthy process of a public inquiry. For these reasons, we feel ourselves unable to accept the Amendment.

§ Mr. G. THORNE
I beg to move, after Clause 4, to insert the following new Subsection: (5) In schemes under this Act adequate provision shall also be made in order to secure that all young persons referred to in Section ten, Sub-section (a), may, during the period of seven years therein mentioned, attend continuation schools as in such Section referred to if such young persons, or their parents on their behalf, claim in writing the right to so attend. The object that I have in view seems to me so clear that I will not occupy the time of the House in endeavouring to elaborate it. In Committee, the right hon. Gentleman, to the regret of many of us, made a concession of seven years under Clause 10 with regard to the compulsory powers. Although we regret it, we are supporters of the Bill, and we loyally accept the concession. In this 775 Amendment I do not refer to compulsion, but to those who would have come within the terms of the Section but for the modification, and who voluntarily desire to be so instructed. I imagine the President of the Board of Education and all others interested in education would desire the principle of this Amendment to be carried out. I have had it put to me that there are two objections. The first is from the standpoint of the employer. I submit that is not an objection of substance. My Amendment only refers to young persons who, or whose parents, ask for it. I assume that they would only ask for it if the assent of the employer had already been obtained, and that difficulty, therefore, would not stand in the way. An objection has been put to me of much greater substance, and it is that there would be administrative difficulty. I should be the very last man who would desire to place any administrative difficulty in the way of local authorities working this Act. I want to see it worked fully and effectively and with as little friction as possible, but at the same time I am very anxious to secure the object expressed by this Amendment. If the right hon. Gentleman tells me that in the form in which it is put it would have administrative difficulties, of course I shall accept the statement coming from so high an authority, but in that case I sincerely hope that he will be able to suggest how the object that I have in view may be obtained. I am not in the least degree wedded to the precise terms in which I am making this proposal. I only want to secure that those who, but for the alteration of the Bill, would have come under the compulsory powers and who now desire this education voluntarily shall have it provided for them.

§ Sir R. ADKINS
I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. FISHER
I hope my hon. Friend will be satisfied with an assurance, which I am very ready to give him, that during the suspensory period of seven years the Board will give every encouragement to local education authorities and will press them to provide day as well as evening continuation schools for young persons between the ages of sixteen and eighteen. This is a matter to be secured by administrative pressure, and I can assure my hon. 776 Friend that so far as the Board is concerned he may look with confidence to that pressure being applied.