HC Deb 12 July 1918 vol 108 cc613-21

(1) Every council in England and Wales exercising powers under this Act or under Section two of the Notification of Births (Extension) Act, 1915, shall establish a materity and child welfare committee, and all matters relating to the exercise of the powers of the council under this Act or under the Notification of Births (Extension) Act, 1915 (except the power of raising a rate or of borrowing money), shall stand referred to such committee, and the council, before exercising any such powers, shall, unless in their opinion the matter is urgent, receive and consider the report of the maternity and child welfare committee with respect to the matter in question, and the council may also delegate to the maternity and child welfare committee, with or without restrictions or conditions as they think fit, any of their powers under that Act or this Act, except the power of raising a rate or of borrowing money.

(2) Not less than two-thirds of the members of every maternity and child welfare committee shall consist of members of the council, but the council shall also appoint as members of the committee persons specially qualified by training or experience in subjects relating to health and maternity who are not members of the council. Maternity and child welfare committees shall include women.

(3) The committee established under this Section shall take the place of any committee appointed under Sub-section (2) of Section two of the Notification of Births (Extension) Act, 1915, and the provisions of that Sub-section relating to the exercise of powers by a committee shall cease to have effect.

The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Hayes Fisher)

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "committee" ["shall establish a maternity and child welfare committee"], to insert the words "which may be an existing committee of the council or a sub-committee of an existing committee."

When we were in Committee we agreed that every local authority should be able to make arrangements for the health of prospective mothers, nursing mothers, and children under five years of age, and those local authorities were, of course, county councils, Metropolitan borough councils, borough councils, and urban and district councils. Then we discussed the question of what machinery should be set up by which they might make these arrangements, and we agreed that it would be well that every council should set up a committee for this purpose, but there was a difference of opinion as to whether the councils would be able to make use of their existing committees or appoint sub-committees of those existing committees, or whether they should appoint for the purpose ad hoc committees. The hon. and gallant Member for the City of Durham (Major Hills) put down an Amendment to the effect that the county councils should be able to make use of their existing health committees. There was a good deal of difference of opinion on this matter, and I promised to consider the whole matter between then and Report. We discussed another point, as to whether, when these committees were formed, there should be co-option upon these committees of persons who had exceptional experience and zeal in carrying out duties of this kind. The Bill, as introduced into the House and discussed in Committee, made it compulsory on the councils to co-opt persons peculiarly qualified, but again a good deal of opinion was expressed in the Committee that while it was desirable that councils should have the opportunity of co-opting, it should not be made mandatory on them to co-opt. I rather took the view that it should be mandatory, but my right hon. Friend, who has been President of the Local Government Board (Mr. H. Samuel), took the view that it should be optional on the councils to co-opt, and I must say I think he got the best of the argument, and in consequence I have, in framing this Amendment, adopted his view rather than my own. Then came the third question that we discussed, and that is as to whether or not——

Mr. SPEAKER

We are discussing only one Amendment now. We cannot discuss all of them together.

Mr. FISHER

I apologise. I ought to have asked your leave.

Mr. SPEAKER

I cannot give leave. We must discuss one thing at a time.

Mr. SHERWELL

Do I understand that we are now discussing the first Amendment in the name of the President of the Local Government Board, because the hon. Member for Tavistock (Sir J. Spear) has an earlier Amendment?

Mr. SPEAKER

No; the Amendment of the hon. Member for Tavistock is the last. The first Amendment, which I was expecting the right hon. Gentleman to move, is to insert after the word "committee" the words "which may be an existing committee of the council or a sub-committee of an existing committee." We have got to dispose of that first.

Mr. FISHER

I did intend to ask, on a point of Order, as to whether or not it was possible for me to raise the general discussion, because I have entirely reconstructed the machinery as introduced in Committee, but I will follow your ruling, Sir, and only argue the first part of the Amendment. I think it would be as well to leave it optional to each council either to utilise one of its committees, probably the public health committee, or, what would probably be more convenient, to form a sub-committee of one of the existing committees, and to utilise that as the machinery.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. FISHER

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "Not less than two-thirds of the members of every maternity and child welfare committee shall consist of members of the council, but the council shall also," and to insert instead thereof the words "The council may."

Sir W. COLLINS

As one of those who criticised the Bill in Committee, I desire to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the result of his further consideration of this point. The objections taken by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) and others and myself in the Committee last Tuesday were directed not so much against the voluntary co-option of members as against the mandatory co-option of members on this committee or sub-committee, and I am very glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman has been so good as to meet the criticisms on that point. His view was that it was absolutely essential that women should find their places on these committees. I do not think there is any difference of opinion in the House on that point, and it is probable, I believe, when the new register comes into operation, that women will find themselves in greater numbers than before elected to all local authorities throughout the country. The result of the Amendments on the Paper is to bring about a rather clumsy proviso that those who may be co-opted for the purposes of maternity and child welfare will not be allowed to take part in other discussions touching health questions. That raises the whole problem of the hyper-specialisation of co-opted members. The difference between infant welfare and public health questions is a very difficult one to draw. The difference between public health and housing questions is not an easy one to demarcate, and the difference between housing problems and general municipal questions raises large questions of policy, where again it is very difficult sharply to differentiate. I therefore venture to put in a caveat in regard to the difficulties which arise where there is too much specialisation in regard to the co-option of persons who may be useful for particular purposes of local government. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has met the criticisms urged in Committee.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

I should like to join in thanking my right hon. Friend for having accepted so fully the suggestions made in Committee. In respect to the inconveniences that may arise owing to the limitations of this provision which have been mentioned by the last speaker, I agree that there will be some inconvenience, but, on the other hand, it would be very difficult now to reform the constitution of the health committees of the local authorities for all purposes. This Bill is limited to maternity and child welfare, and we cannot go outside the scope of it. In all probability in the future a new system of local government will be formed, remodelling the whole local health organisation of the country, and I hope that will be done under the auspices of a Ministry of Health. In that event, no doubt the temporary provisions inserted here will fall into their proper place in the machinery of local government.

Mr. G. THORNE

I would like to associate myself with what has been said byway of thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for having met the objections raised on the Committee stage, and I should particularly like to do so on behalf of the Associated Municipal Corporations, who felt very keenly the difficulties in connection with co-option; but, now that the right hon. Gentleman makes these proposals, those difficulties are completely met, and, therefore, we are very grateful to him.

Sir J. JARDINE

I also wish to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the Amendments he has introduced. I believe there is more and more a disposition in local government to have women either co-opted or elected on the various authorities which deal with municipal matters, especially those relating to women and to children, I think this is a very good step in advance which is being made.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. FISHER

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "maternity and child welfare committees shall include women," and to insert instead thereof the words, but not less than two-thirds of the members of every maternity and child-welfare committee shall consist of members of the council and at least two members of every such committee shall be women, and where the duties of the maternity and child-welfare committee are discharged by an existing committee or sub committee any members appointed under this provision who are not members of the council shall act only in connection with maternity and child welfare. By this Amendment I want to make it quite plain that where there are not women on the council or no suitable women on the council for the particular work of maternity and child welfare it will be compulsory on the council to co-opt women. Undoubtedly, there will be some inconvenience in the words which limit the rights of those who sit on this Committee to vote and take action only in connection with maternity and child welfare. I find it very difficult to fix a certain area of authority, and say that other questions, such as housing and sanitation, do not concern maternity and child welfare; but I would point out to my hon. Friend that this is hardly the time, in a small Bill of this limited character, to consider the duties which shall attach to women who are associated especially with maternity and child welfare, but I hope before very long to have an opportunity to look into the whole machinery connected with various public health activities, and when I am in a position to give proper consideration to that question I doubt not that the difficulties will disappear, and that we will see that these important duties connected with maternity and child welfare are divorced from housing, sanitation, and other public health activities to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

Mr. SPEAKER

Now is the hon. Member for Tavistock's opportunity to move the Amendment which he has upon the Paper to the proposed Amendment. It will come in after the word "women" ["committee shall be women, and"]. The Amendment will then read, "but not less than two-thirds of the members of every maternity and child welfare committee shall consist of members of the council, and at least two members of every such committee shall be women, who shall, when available, be guardians of the poor."

Sir J. SPEAR

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "women" ["shall be women, and"], to insert the words "who shall, when available, be guardians of the poor."

I move this Amendment under your direction, Sir, and I wish to say that I am as grateful as anyone to the right hon. Gentleman for securing the presence of women on the committee. If this Amendment is accepted we shall not only have the advantage of women on the committee, but of women who have been elected by the constituents because of their especial qualifications for this kind of work. The council would not only secure women as members of the committee, but those women would be representative of the public. Boards of guardians have included women as members who have had long experience of dealing with maternity and child welfare among the poorest people, whom the right hon. Gentleman and others are very anxious to benefit and relieve by this Bill. The acceptance of an Amendment of this kind, I submit to the House, would be of great value in bringing to a successful issue the objects of this measure. The Poor Law guardians have shown in recent years great anxiety for the welfare and care of children committed to their charge. The right hon. Gentleman only two days ago very kindly, in reply to a question of mine, pointed out that a very large number of the children who come under the Poor Law have been placed in cottage homes and boarded out. I know they have been helped and encouraged to do that by the Board over which the right hon. Gentleman presides, but the feeling is growing amongst the guardians that the greatest possible care should be taken of children in their charge, and that they should be trained in the best interests of citizen life. Having regard to that fact, if this Amendment is accepted, while it is true that these women will be co-opted, yet they will still, in their representative capacity as guardians, have the confidence of the electors, and in that respect I think women guardians have a stronger claim for admission to this committee than any other class of women, because they have shown by the very position to which they have been elected their qualifications to deal with this class of work. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment, which is not mandatory; it merely suggests to the municipal body that, where available, women guardians should be appointed on the committee. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, in the interests of the successful working of the Bill, to give opportunity for service to those women, when available, who have been life workers in the care of the poor. They know the feelings of the poor, they know their fear, and I cannot help thinking that it would contribute to the success of these committees if these women were co-opted as suggested by my Amendment.

Mr. PETO

I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.

I am quite sure that all hon. Members who have had any personal experience of this work will desire to have these women, if available, co-opted, knowing their devotion to the work, a devotion which I think is infinitely greater in most cases than that which is shown by our own sex. If there are to be women on these committees at all, there could be no better selection made than to choose those women who have already shown in the arduous duties of Poor Law guardians that they have at heart the true interests of the poorer classes of the community.

Mr. FISHER

The Amendment which is on the Paper makes it mandatory to appoint at least two women on these committees. The council are to have the fullest possible opportunity of choosing from any field they like the women to be co-opted on these committees. When we were in Committee there were several Amendments upon the Paper to limit the council in regard to the selection of women. Some wanted Poor Law guardians, some midwives, and some women with other qualifications for the duties to be performed, but I came to the conclusion that it was better to allow a complete choice to the council as to what women they would co-opt, and I think it would be unfortunate if we were to indicate to these councils the kind of women that ought to be selected, making special reference to the qualifications of women who are Poor Law guardians. I have the highest opinion of the immense value of the sympathetic work which is done by lady guardians. If they have done work in the manner indicated by my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, I feel pretty sure the choice of the council will fall upon them. If a woman is capable and qualified, she certainly is not ruled out of this work merely because she is a Poor Law guardian.

But I think it would be a great mistake to indicate in an Act of Parliament that Poor Law guardians should be given a preference, because look where it will lead us! There might be two vacancies on this body to be filled by women, and there might be two women in the locality who had given years of their lives to maternity and child welfare, but who had never joined the board of guardians, whereas there might be lady guardians who were very anxious to get on the committee, and, although very good guardians of the poor, might not be actually the best for this particular kind of work; yet, if the Amendment to the Amendment were carried, there would be no choice on the part of the council if those two women chose to exercise their right. They could go to the council and say, "Look at the Act of Parliament; you must choose us preferably." That, I think, would be unfortunate, and I think it is very much better to keep the Bill as it is, and allow the most complete elasticity and freedom of choice to all the councils, knowing at the same time that if lady guardians were particularly qualified for this class of work, the choice of the council would no doubt fall on them.

Sir J. AINSWORTH

I should be extremely glad if the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill could see his way to act on the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Tavistock. My hon. Friend has had a lifelong experience of all branches of local government work, especially that of the board of guardians, and I think the Amendment he has moved is one which should be adopted by the House. Boards of guardians are among the most active bodies working on behalf of the poor, and the Bill before the House specially concerns matters affecting the poor. I think it would be only right if the Government could see its way to make a special recommendation in the manner proposed by the Amendment to the Amendment. Any of us who know the work done now by the boards of guardians moist know how splendid that work has been, and what enormous interest they have shown in the care of the children, and in establishing the principle that poverty is no crime. If the House will make the assistance and work of the boards of guardians part and parcel of this new policy, I sincerely hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept my hon. Friend's Amendment.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, negatived.

Proposed words there inserted with the Bill.