HC Deb 09 July 1918 vol 108 cc252-4

The expenses of any council in England and Wales under this Act shall be defrayed in the same manner as expenses under the Notification of Births Acts, 1907 and 1915:

Provided that a county council may, if they think fit, charge all expenses under this Act or those Acts as general county expenses subject to the condition that if any district council within the county has provided for its district a similar service to that provided by the county council for other parts of the county, the county council shall pay to the district council the amount raised by them in the district in respect of such service.

Mr. FISHER

I beg to move, after "1915," to insert the words, "and the purposes of this Act shall be purposes for which a sanitary authority in London may borrow under Sub-section (2) of Section one hundred and five of the Public Health (London) Act, 1891."

This Amendment is moved in order that the sanitary authorities in London may have the power of borrowing with the sanction of the Local Government Board.

Amendment agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN

Is the next Amendment—[to leave out the proviso]—consequential?

Sir W. MIDDLEBROOK

May I just say that it was put down because these words appeared to raise unnecessary complications and may not unlikely lead to disputes as to what is meant by "similar service." The safe course would be to rely upon the words of the Acts of 1907 and 1915. I think something may be said for regarding the Amendment as consequential upon the alteration made, but I am quite prepared not to move it now, relying upon the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman, which I am sure he will give me, that he will consider whether it should be dealt with as a consequential Amendment upon the Report stage. May I also express my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for the readiness which he has shown to meet every reasonable Amendment for securing the better working of this Act?

Mr. FISHER

The object was to legalise a certain procedure that had been adopted in a few localities and for which there was not proper legal sanction.

Mr. BOOTH

On a point of Order. What is there before the Committee?

Sir W. MIDDLEBROOK

I beg formally to leave out the words, Provided that a county council may, if they think fit, charge all expenses under this Act or those Acts as general county expenses subject to the condition that if any district council within the county has provided for its district a similar service to that provided by the county council for other parts of the county, the county council shall pay to the district council the amount raised by them in the district in respect of such service.

Mr. FISHER

I am not sure that the Amendment will be necessary now that we have made certain alterations in the Bill, but I will look into it and see whether it is necessary.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. FISHER

I beg to move to leave out the word "them" ["raised by them in the district of such service"], and to insert instead thereof the words "the county council."

Question, "That the word 'them' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That the words 'the county council' be there inserted."

Major HILLS

It is quite clear, if we pass these words, that the county council cannot be compelled to pay to the district council more than such proportion of the general rate as is raised in that district. As the Clause was drawn, it looked as though the district council could spend what it liked and call upon the county council to refund it the money. I was quite sure that was not the intention, and so I put down an Amendment to make it clear that what the county council could be compelled to pay to the district council was the proportion of the general rate which was attributable to that district.

Mr. FISHER

My hon. and gallant Friend may rely upon it that that is so.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4 (Amendment of s. 3 of 5 and 6 Geo. 5, c. 64) and 5 (Short Title and Application) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

8.0 P.M.

The CHAIRMAN

The new Clause (Transfer of Duties to Minister of Public Health) standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills) is not in order.

Major HILLS

On a point of Order. I do not venture to dispute your ruling, Mr. Whitley, but may I respectfully point out that we have increased the health activities of the Local Government Board to a very great extent, and would it not be in order to suggest that, if the House sees fit to grant those powers, they should be transferred to a new Minister, if and when appointed, of Public Health?

Mr. BOOTH

On the point of Order. I submit that this will be legislation in advance, and that it will be practically an attempt to govern the House in regard to subsequent legislation; also that it would practically be a direction to this House as to how it should frame a subsequent Bill. I submit we cannot do that.

The CHAIRMAN

It might also be a direction to another House too. It is what we call an "if and when" suggestion. Certainly I cannot entertain that.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Thursday.