HC Deb 28 January 1918 vol 101 cc1397-401

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

I hope the Minister in charge of this Bill will give us some explanation, as the measure has taken a form which was not anticipated by the House when the arrangement was come to by which it was referred to a Conference of the representatives of the Nationalist and the Unionist Members of this House with Mr. Speaker as chairman and, so to speak, as arbitrator. I feel sure we are all heartily glad that an amicable settlement has been reached and that without delay. it has been possible to place agreed proposals before Parliament. It was, however, by no means anticipated that the outcome would be to increase still further the already admitted over-representation of Ireland in this House, and I think the country will be somewhat surprised to find that the ultimate outcome of the discussion on redistribution, so far as it affects Ireland, will be that the number of Irish representatives will be raised from 103 to 105, although it is well known that on the basis of population that representation should he in the neighbourhood of 60.

The reasons why it cannot be reduced to that number have been repeatedly stated in the House by many of us, and I do not propose to go over that ground again. Particularly there will be disappointment when it is found that the settlement arrived at is such that not only are the Irish representatives to be increased by two, but those additional two are to be university representatives, although to many of us university representation is regarded as an anomaly and we should have been glad to get rid of it in tote. It has been the declared policy of the Liberal Party for many years past to oppose the creation of university seats, but I understand that this proposal has been adopted as part of the compromise agreed to at the original conference on electoral changes connected with the Representation of the People Bill. Originally the number of universities was nine, but under the Bill that number was increased by three, which brought the total up to twelve.

There have been hitherto, and there are at this moment, five university seats in England, two in Scotland, and two in Ireland, a total of As part of the compromise agreed at Mr. Speaker's Conference, that number was raised to twelve, and we acquiesced in that as a portion, and an integral part, of the general arrangement. Two more university seats were to be added to England and one more to Scotland, making a total of twelve. It is now proposed that two further seats should be added to Ireland, and in another place—it is not irrelevant to state the fact; although we cannot discuss it yet —a further university seat has been added for Wales, making a total of no fewer than fifteen university representatives in this House, if all these proposals are agreed to. I must reserve to a later stage any statement as to any action which we may think fit to take with regard to the addition to the university membership of Ireland, but I hope the Home Secretary will tell us to-day how many graduates there are in the University of Dublin, in the Queen's University, Belfast, and in the National University at Dublin, respectively. If he has not the information at hand, perhaps he will state it. in answer to a question in the House before we come to the Committee stage, in order that we may have full information as to the character of the constituencies which are now to be enfranchised.

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir G. Cave)

This Bill is the outcome of a discussion which took place when we had the Representation of the People Bill before, this House. The Government then made certain proposals for the redistribution of seats in Ireland. Objections were taken, but ultimately the principle on which we are proceeding was accepted on all hands, namely, that all parts of that. country should have equitable representation, having regard to population. On that basis the matter was referred to a Conference representing both of the parties from Ireland, with yourself as chairman, with a view to a scheme being brought before the House. We are again much indebted to Mr. Speaker for having been good enough to take charge of this matter, and so complete his labours with reference to the redistribution of seats. and the reform of the franchise. We are also indebted to the members of the Conference and to Mr. Jerred who was good enough to act as secretary. I am very glad to find that not only was our principle accepted by the Conference, but that with small exceptions the Conference adopted the whole of the scheme which we brought before the House. The three exceptions are these: First, they recommended that, instead of the Borough of Waterford being thrown into the County of Waterford, the two together having two seats, the borough itself should remain as a separate constituency and the remainder of the county should have one member. That difference makes no change in the number of representatives. I do not know whether it is intended to commemorate the long connection of the present Member with the borough, but, if so, I feel it a privilege to have any part in giving effect to that suggestion. Secondly, there was a change made in the boundaries of the constituencies in County Down. I am not familiar enough with the circumstances in County Down to enable me to say exactly what is the effect of that change. I have no doubt that some result will be derived or that some reason for the change will be suggested, but I am not able or competent to say more than that about. it at. the present moment.

The third change is that to which my right hon. Friend opposite has referred, namely, the recommendation that there should be two new members from Ireland—a member for Queen's University at Belfast and a member for the National University at Dublin. I say quite frankly that it came as a surprise to me to find that the two university members recommended were to be in addition to the existing Members from Ireland. I agree with my right hon. Friend, and I think hardly anybody in this House in his heart would deny that Ireland is adequately and, indeed, excessively represented so far as numbers go in this House at the present time, and I had hoped, if it were found desirable to provide representation for the two universities, which I know was very strongly desired in Ireland, that room would have been made for them by giving up two of the existing seats. Apparently, the members of the Conference could not agree as to the method of obtaining that result, and the recommendation, as I understand, comes as representing the unanimous agreement of the Conference. The fact that they are to be university members is to me not an aggravation, but a mitigation of the regret that I feel. I think that these two Irish universities are well worthy, if I may use the word, of representation, and have as good a claim as our new universities in England to be represented in this House. I believe that the numbers at present are something of this kind. I am told that in Dublin University there will be some 16,000 electors. Perhaps I am overstating it. It is between 14,000 and 15,000. It is a large electorate. As regards Belfast, the number is given to me as about 3,800 at present, and, as far as regards the National University the number will be less than that. I believe something like 3,600. Those are not very large numbers, but no doubt the universities will grow as time goes on, and justify the representation given to them.

Mr. H. SAMUEL

Will that be the electorate under the Bill, as amended?

Sir G. CAVE

I understand so, but it is impossible to be quite sure. It may be that the numbers will be rather higher when the women electors are added. I am afraid the numbers are less in the university in Wales to which my right hon. Friend referred, but I do not wish in the least to prejudice that question before it comes before this House. I feel that the recommendations come to us with all the authority of the Conference, and with the support of all the parties in Ireland, and, speaking for myself, I hope that the House will give effect to them all.

Mr. DENMAN

I want, as a private Member, to express my own extreme sense of surprise at the recommendations before us. We naturally receive them with mixed feelings. Of course, we always accept any proposition that comes to us with the united agreement of Irishmen, and, when the proposition takes the form of more Irish members in this House, we receive it with alacrity, but, recollecting the ancient controversy on the question of the representation of Ireland, I am very much surprised that the Nationalists, at all events, are willing to accept this particular suggestion. It has always been maintained that this House has very little right to deal with the numbers of Irishmen sent to this House, because the number was fixed in a contract which is regarded as binding on both parties. If this contract is capable of easy variation in the upward direction, it is obviously easy of variation in the lower direction, and it seems to me the case for maintaining the existing number of Irishmen in this House becomes very poor when once we alter the number fixed at the time of the Act of Union. I hope in the Committee stage the subject will be seriously considered. Of course, no one wants to raise any difficulty, but I think there will be a very wide feeling that if we could leave the numbers as they were before this Bill came before the House it would be advisable.