HC Deb 24 January 1918 vol 101 cc1152-60
Mr. WATT (by Private Notice)

asked the Minister of National Service whether the Government have consulted the Amalgamated Society of Engineers on the proposal to depart from the agreement as to the recruiting of skilled men and apprentices made last year, and whether it is intended to abrogate the pledges then given without full consultation with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers?

The MINISTER of NATIONAL SERVICE (Sir Auckland Geddes)

The short answer is that the Government has invited the Amalgamated Society of Engineers to meet them in consultation, with the other trade unions affected, to discuss the revision of the Schedule of Protected Occupations, and the agreements governing its administration, but that the Amalgamated Society of Engineers has declined to meet the Government in con- ference with the other societies, except on the terms that those societies shall take no part in the deliberations

I think, however, the House will desire that I should make a fuller reply as to the position taken up by the Amalgamated Society of Engineers in connection with the proposals to revise the Schedule and agreements as to the recruitment of skilled men and apprentices made last year.

In May last year, the trade card arrangement was superseded by the Schedule of Protected Occupations. Before the Schedule came into operation, conferences were held with representatives of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, and also with other trade unions. The Schedule itself provided that for the present it was not intended to enlist from Admiralty, War Office, or munitions work in the industries dealt with in the Schedule men who had attained the age of thirty-two by the 1st January, 1917.

As the result of an undertaking given at a conference with representatives of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, the Government issued the following instruction governing the administration of the Schedule: Before any skilled man or apprentice who is not covered. owing to age, by the Schedule of Protected 'Occupations is taken for military service all male diluted labour liable and fit for General Military service in that occupation in the munitions area in which he is employed shall first be withdrawn. It was made clear that this arrangement did not apply exclusively to members of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, but applied to men in any scheduled occupation irrespective of trade union membership; and it has throughout been applied to men entirely irrespective of Whether they belong to any particular trade union or, indeed, to any trade union at all.

At a meeting with representatives of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, on 26th April, a representative asked: What guarantee have we got, if we come to an agreement, that the Government will keep it? The right hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson) replied: You have no guarantee at all, and you cannot get any guarantee at all, in view of the changing circumstances of a great war like this. What we will do, if we are compelled by the necessities of the War (which must always be paramount) again to depart from the Schedule…is we will ask you to come and,meet us before we do it. At a similar meeting, on 2nd May, the following question was put: I ask yon, Mr. Henderson, to (rive us a promise Or pledge that. should it be necessary for the Government to modify Schedule MM. 130, you will consult trade mines before issuing any definite instructions. The right hon. Member for Barnard Castle replied: I have no besitation in saying that, if material or substantial alteration has to he made to the Schedule, it will be our business to call representatives of all organised workers, with whom we hare arranged the Schedule, into consultation and conference, even if we cannot give them all they want when we get them here. It was thus made clear to the delegates of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers:

  1. 1. That the agreement thus made would not necessarily last for ever, but might have to be changed to meet the needs of the War.
  2. 2. That before it was changed the Government would summon the trade unions and confer with them.
  3. 3. That this conference would be with representatives of all the unions concerned.
In this connection I may add that the number of men affected is very large, upwards of 1,200,000, who belong to a great variety of trade unions.

The Government has completely fulfilled its Fledge by holding the series of conferences which have taken place during the last three weeks.

I invited representatives of all the unions concerned, including the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, to a general conference, at which a full explanation was given of the circumstances which made it necessary to depart from the May agreement, and to vary the Schedule, by calling up for service not only the older dilutees fit for general service in the great majority of occupations, but also a large number of young men in scheduled occupations.

The Amalgamated Society of Engineers were represented at this conference on the first day (3rd January). On this occasion the proposal was made to hold a series of group conferences to deal with questions of detail. This proposal apparently, at first, found favour with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers.

Mr. Brownlie stated

The organisation which I have the honour to represent accepts the proposal put forward by Sir Auckland Geddes to meet in groups with regard to his proposal as to a clean-cut with reference to occupations. The general conference adjourned until the next day. The Amalgamated Society of Engineers were not present on the second day of the general conference. At this meeting the groups were settled, the constitution of the groups being that approved by the conference itself.

An invitation was issued to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers to attend a conference of the engineering group on the 11th instant. On the 9th January they wrote stating that they desired to have a conference apart from the other members of the engineering group. They repeated this request to the Prime Minister and to myself.

The Amalgamated Society of Engineers were invited to attend the final general conference, but did not do so.

At the final meeting, I proposed to the conference that a further opportunity should be afforded to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers to join in a meeting of the engineering group. The conference, after discussion. endorsed this proposal, and expressed the desire that, as the general conference would not reassemble, two representatives should also be present from each of the other groups. This decision and invitation were communicated to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, and declined by them in letters which have already been made public.

I would call the particular attention of the House to the decision arrived at by the delegates of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers and communicated to me on the 18th instant. The decision was as follows: That the Minister of National Service be informed that the delegates of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers are favourable to, accept the basis of the conference as suggested on the understanding tint the other trade union represent Lives take no part in the deliberations of the conference. In reply to that letter, I renewed the invitation to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers to meet me together with other members of the engineering group, and together with two representatives from each of the other groups; and I told the Amalgamated Society of Engineers that it would be impossible, in my opinion, to exclude the other representatives who would be present from taking part in the discussion, and expressed the hope that the Amalgamated Society of Engineers would accept my invitation on the terms proposed by the conference. That invitation was again declined on the 19th instant by the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, and yesterday a telegram was addressed to the Prime Minister, and also to myself, in the following terms: I am instructed by the delegate meeting of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers to in form you that a special conference of representatives from all district & in Great Britain and Ireland was held on the 22nd instant; the meeting confirmed the position taken up by the delegate meeting that the new man-power proposals are a violation of the May agreement, and that, unless the Government meet the Amalgamated Society of Engineers in consultation, they are determined to resist any action on the part of the Government to take skilled men before the terms of the said agreement have been carried out. It will be seen that repeated opportunities of consultation with the Government have been afforded to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, but have been declined by that society, who have taken up the attitude that they must be consulted alone or that, if representatives of other unions are present, that those representatives shall not take any part in the deliberations, in. which all have a common interest.

Mr. PRINGLE

Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether at the meeting at which the statements he has quoted from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson) were made, the only trade union represented was the Amalgamated Society of Engineers?

Sir A. GEDDES

I cannot state positively with regard to the first meeting, but my impression is that at that meeting representatives of all the engineering group were present. With regard to the second meeting, that held on May 2nd, I am in a position to say that was a statement made to the delegates of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, who on that occasion were met alone.

Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT

May I ask whether there is any objection in principle to meeting them alone? Would the representatives of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers require not only that the Department shall meet them alone, but that the Department should not meet any other trade union representatives separately; and, seeing that they have been met alone in the past, is there any objection in principle by the Government to meeting them alone and explaining to them the Government position?

Sir A. GEDDES

There is this difficulty. In conformity with the pledge given on behalf of the Government in the spring of last year a general meeting of the representatives of all the unions concerned was held. At that meeting, held on 3rd January of this year, we discussed the procedure which should be followed. All the unions present were convinced that the only way of avoiding suspicion of special sectional treatment was that there should be public meetings between the Government and the representatives of the groups of unions—public in the sense that representatives of other unions were present—and that the Government should not meet separately and privately any single union. That position was accepted by the representatives of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, as I have just stated. Mr. Brownlie said: The organisation which I have the honour to represent accepts the proposal put forward by Sir Auckland Geddes to meet in groups with regurd to his proposal as to a 'clean-cut' with reference to occupations. From that time forward the Government has been in this position, that it accepted the wish of the representatives of organised Labour to meet in a certain way. Speaking on behalf of the Government, I said that we would follow the procedure which the conference decided upon as being satisfactory to secure perfectly fair treatment, and to prevent what they feared, and what they called, namely, hole-and-corner negotiations. Therefore, I think it is impossible, in view of the undertaking which we gave to the representatives of organised Labour for us to depart from that position and to meet now in private session one of the organisations with which we have been holding conferences.

Mr. PRINGLE

In view of the fact that the undertaking, which the Government now seek to modify and revise, was made with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers alone, does the Government not think it advisable to treat with that body, and not to break off the negotiation, which is of such an important character, on a mere point of form, and also in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has met other organisations privately, such as the Comrades of the Great War and the National Federation of Discharged Soldiers?

Sir A. GEDDES

I must really try to get this point clear. There are a group of unions which entered last year into an arrangement with the Government as to the operation of an administrative system of protection, which is usually referred to as the Schedule of Protected Occupations. With that Schedule neither the Comrades of the Great War nor the Federation of Discharged and Demobilised Sailors and Soldiers had anything whatever to do. Neither had such a great and an important trade union as the Miners' Federation of Great Britain anything whatever to do with that Schedule. A perfectly separate arrangement existed with regard to them.

It has been repeatedly stated that the Government entered into a special arrangement with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers. That statement must be made in ignorance of the facts. There was one agreement between the Government and all the unions which were affected by the Schedule of Protected Occupations, as I have said. At certain of the meetings in the spring of last year—in May, and possibly also in April—the Amalgamated Society of Engineers were met alone, but the agreement arrived at was not different from that which was made with all the other unions, and it was made plain to them at the time that if there were any further negotiations, those negotiations would take place with representatives of all organised workers with whom we had arranged. That is the Government pledge. That is the pledge which we have carried out, and the procedure which we have adopted has been adopted as the result of a decision of a conference of organised labour at which the Amalgamated Society was present, and in which decision the representatives of the Amalgamated Society concurred.

Mr. WATT

I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not, the case that the Amalgamated Society of Engineers are quite willing to meet him along with other groups, as long as those other groups do not take part in the discussion? So that it narrows down to this: that it is a question of silence or otherwise on the part of those other unions?

Mr. GEORGE TERRELL

Can the right hon. Gentleman state what is the membership of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, and how many of its members are under the age of twenty-four years?

Mr. P. A. HARRIS

Do the other trade unions object to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers being met separately?

Sir A. GEDDES

The other trade unions object so strongly to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, or any other single union of the group concerned, being met separately, that if we were to meet one of those unions separately, the others would feel that they were entirely released from any obligation into which they had entered.

Mr. C. EDWARDS

As a matter of fact, can the least little bit of harm be done to any of the other trade unions by a perfectly frank discussion with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers? it is not a question of whether they object, but whether, in fact, a. conference cannot take place where it can be explained to them exactly what the position is, so that their faces can be saved by having a separate conference. That is No. 1. No. 2 is this: If that cannot be done, and the Amalgamated Society of Engineers threaten on the one side, and the other unions threaten on the other side, what steps do the Government propose to take with regard to those threats to interfere with getting man-power for the Army?

Sir A. GEDDES

The Government propose to go on with the Bill. With regard to the other points raised, there is not, and there never has been, any objection on the part of the Government to explain to any body of British citizens who are interested in the matter what are their proposals. We have been explaining them at one meeting after another for some weeks, but to negotiate separately with one of the trade unions in the groups — no.

Mr. PRINGLE

I think it is very important to have this cleared up. Is it not possible for the Government to devise a means whereby those negotiations shall not break down on a mere matter of form?

Sir C. SEELY

Might I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—might I ask him whether he would not consider a suggestion that he should meet the Amalgamated Society of Engineers to discuss the matter with them without prejudice, and then meet the other unions, with or without them, and tell the other unions what he has done? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] As I understand him, he is quarrelling with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers on a question of procedure, which, in the present condition of affairs, is somewhat unfortunate.

Sir A. GEDDES

I am afraid that the procedure which is suggested by the hon. Member does not hold out any hope of a solution of the difficulty which exists. On the point of procedure, I have seen members of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers and, as I said in the reply which I have read, at the last general meeting of all the trade unions I put forward a series of suggestions, in which that meeting concurred; and, under the arrangement then made, the invitation to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers was renewed only to meet with refusal on the part of that society to attend such a meeting, unless it was definitely undertaken that no member of any other section of organised labour should speak.