§ (2) It shall be the duty of every male person who, by virtue of this Act, is liable to register himself under the principal Act, or who was liable to register himself under the principal Act but has failed so to do before the passing of this Act, to cause himself to be registered, and for that purpose before the appointed date to obtain, fill up, sign, and send or deliver to the local registration authority, by post or otherwise, a form containing the particulars mentioned in Section four of the principal Act or such of those particulars as may be prescribed.
§ The appointed date for the purpose of this Section shall, as respects persons who come within the operation of this Section on the date of the passing of this Act, or within fourteen days thereafter, be the twenty-eighth day after that date, and in the case of any other persons be the fourteenth day after the date on which they come within the operation of this Secion.
§ (2) Sections five, six, and thirteen of the principal Act (which relate respectively to the completion and correction of forms, to the right to certificates of registration and to penalties) shall have effect as if references therein to forms included a reference to forms under this Act.
§ The CHAIRMANThe first Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark, is to leave out Subsection (1), but Sub-section (1) appears to be the whole of the Clause.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEI desire to move the deletion of the Sub-section to raise the question of placing the responsibility of registering himself upon the person who reaches the age of fifteen, and by raising that matter, in a general discussion, to elicit from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill some indication of what modifications he is prepared to accept. I should confine myself within those limits.
§ The CHAIRMANStill I am afraid it must come on the Clause, and not on the Sub -section.
§ Major NEWMANI have put down an Amendment to leave out the word "male."
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member took his discussion on Clause 1.
§ Major NEWMANThis is quite a different point.
§ The CHAIRMANClause 1 sets out the new persons who are to be registered, and the Committee there decided that they were to be male persons. Clause 2 sets out the method in which persons are to do the duty imposed upon them, and it must follow the same terms.
§ Major NEWMANOn the point of Order. Clause 2 does not altogether deal with new persons. It deals also with persons who were liable to register themselves under the principal Act and have failed to do so.
§ The CHAIRMANIf the hon. Member has a separate point, he can deal with it.
§ Major NEWMANI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "male."
We are dealing in this Bill not only with those who come under this Bill, but with persons who are liable under the principal Act to register and did not do so. If that applies to men, it surely ought to apply to women! A great number of men did not take the trouble to register themselves under the original Act, and this is perhaps even more true of women. It must be notorious that there are hundreds of thousands of women who for various reasons did not register themselves under the original Act. Under the original Act forms were sent round to the household by canvassers selected by the local authorities, filled up and returned. It is obvious, in the case, say, of a single woman living by herself, that she was not reached by the canvassers and did not fill in a form, and has never since taken the trouble to do so. I take it that this particular Clause means to make her liable to register herself. The machinery now is quite different. It is now up to her to register herself. There is no one to run after her. She has got to go to a post office, apply for a form, fill it up, and return it, and if she does not do so she is liable to a penalty. Therefore I suggest if we leave in the word "male" we shall be defeating the purpose of this Bill altogether. It is obvious that Clause 7 will have to be enforced in respect of these women who have not registered themselves under the old Act, and it is much better to do this now and to provide that every person, whether male or female, shall take steps to register himself, and thus carry out the intention of the Bill.
Mr. FISHERThis Amendment would have a very limited effect. As my hon. 880 and gallant Friend says, it would merely force all females who failed to register under the Act of 1915 to apply for forms and register themselves in the orthodox way. There would be considerable advantage in their so doing, no doubt, but the Government had to consider whether they would apply this Bill to males and females at once or whether they would apply it to males at present and take power by Order in Council to apply it subsequently to females. It was the opinion of the Government that, as we wanted celerity in this matter, as we wanted as quickly as possible to get on the register all these young fellows who have attained the age of fifteen since the last register, and to get on the register as quickly as possible all these who have ceased to be members of His Majesty's Forces, it was better not to put an increased burden on the registration authorities, and that it would cause delay if we were to add any conditions as regards females as well as males. I think that, on the whole, it was a wise decision. My hon. and gallant Friend may be sure that the question will not be lost sight of. It will come up again when we come to Clause 7, which enables the Government to apply this by Order in Council to females, and my hon. and gallant Friend may be certain that, if it turns out to be more easy than we expect to get males on the register, and if we can obtain inclusion of the males within a reasonable period without too arduous a task being put on the registration officers, the case of females will be very carefully considered as to whether we shall avail ourselves of the power, which I hope the Committee will give us, of by Order in Council applying this to females as well as to males.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEI beg to move, to leave out the words "cause himself to be registered and for that purpose before the appointed date to obtain."
This Amendment has to be taken in connection with the subsequent Amendment on the Paper. If my Amendments are adopted then instead of the person being required to obtain the form himself he will have to fill it up after delivery to him by the local registration authorities.
§ The CHAIRMANI think that it would be more convenient to discuss the issue which the hon. Member desires to raise.
§ 7.0 P.M.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEI am very glad to move this Amendment in a form which I think will be for the general convenience of the House. It proposes to substitute for the method of this amending Bill the method which was adopted in the original Act, under which the registration authorities delivered the form to those who were to be registered. This amending Bill proposes that it should be done by the persons to be registered; themselves applying for the form. This means that within fourteen days, in most cases, they are to obtain the form, fill it up, and return it to the local registration authority. If my Amendment be accepted it will relieve the persons to be registered of the liability of themselves obtaining the form, and will place it upon the local registration authority, precisely as is done under the principal Act. The duty of the authority would be to provide the person liable to registration with the form, as under the principal Act. This provision to which my Amendment is directed is one of the chief blemishes of the Bill in the view of some of us. We believe that it will be an unworkable proposal. In the first place, we believe that to imagine that children—for a great many thousands and tens of thousands of those who are to be registered are children at school—should undertake this liability placed upon them of themselves obtaining the form and seeing that they are registered, is to imagine what will prove unworkable. It was stated by my hon. Friend on the Front Bench, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board, that the local registration authority would take care to see that all persons liable to registration were duly informed of their liability. He put it as an entirely simple matter making known to all persons the provisions and liabilities of this Bill, through various agencies. But this Bill may affect some millions of persons, for at the present moment, according to the figures which had been placed before us, this measure affects more than one million boys, and may affect more than one million females, between the ages of fifteen and seventeen and a half. It will also affect something like 400,000 boys, which is the average number of boys attaining the age of fifteen in any one year; and if the provisions of the Bill are extended to females, it will affect, roughly speaking, about 400,000 females who reach the age of fifteen in each year. I suggest to the right hon. 882 Gentleman that the proposal is unworkable with these vast numbers. If the liability to registration is to be brought under the notice of these very great numbers of persons who are affected by the Bill, it will be necessary for the local registration authorities to do something in the nature of a house-to-house canvass and to issue forms to the heads of households, precisely as was done under the principal Act. I have heard no reason whatever in the course of the Debate which has taken place why the methods of the original Act should not be adhered to in this amending Bill.
Let me put a further point. Soldiers who are discharged from the Army, on the passing of this Bill, must, within fourteen days, obtain the form and see that they are registered. This liability is placed upon soldiers, within a very short time, who have been serving in distant parts of the Empire and who will certainly know nothing whatever of this Bill. That is a separate category of persons who will be affected by the provisions of this measure. While I think it wrong, and indeed ludicrous, that we should require schoolchildren of fifteen to carry out this duty and to know about the provisions of this Act, I think it equally wrong and equally ludicrous that we should subject the discharged soldier to what may be heavy penalties for failing, within fourteen days after the passing of the Act, to obtain the form or failing to return it to the registration committee. A very large part of one objection is to the machinery of the Bill. I am not now speaking of the principle of the Bill, which I do not believe in. My objection to a very large part of the harsh machinery with which you attempt to realise that principle will be removed if you do what you did under the original Act, that is if, through the registration office, you send the form to the persons liable to be registered, and then require them to return the forms filled up to the registration authorities. Considering the very great numbers that are involved, it is impossible to consider this suggested machinery without remembering also that the penalties under the original Act are transferred to this Act. I am very glad indeed to see the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board present, because he will remember that on the occasion when the Bill was last under discussion he stated that he was quite unable to see that any penalties would fall upon anybody for non-observance of the pro- 883 visions of this Act, and that no new penalty would be imposed upon any person under this amending Bill that did not fall upon them under the original Act. It is only fair to say that the hon. Gentleman stated that he would look into this point to see if it was correct.
The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Walsh)What I did say was that there were no penalties transferred from the present Act to the new Bill in regard to persons under eighteen years for failing to register.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEThe hon. Gentleman is really quite wrong in that statement. That may have been the statement he intended to make, and I do not dispute for a moment that that was what he intended to say, but I think if he refers to the OFFICIAL REPORT he will see that his words can bear a much wider interpretation than that. But it is essential to consider what penalties fall upon these children in connection with this Amendment. If you look at Clause 11 of this Bill you will see that the two Acts have to be construed together, and I suppose that the whole of the penalties under the original Act are transferred to this measure, not only by reason of the last Clause of it, but particularly by reason of Sub-section (2) of Clause 2, which we are now to consider, and which is an involved piece of draftsmanship that a child will find it difficult to understand immediately, or even a discharged soldier, for that matter. Sub-section (2) says, "Sections 5, 6, and 13 of the principal Act (which relate, respectively, to the completion and collection of forms, to the right to certificates of registration and to penalties) shall have effect as if reference therein to forms included a reference to forms under this Act." I understand—perhaps I am not divulging any secret—that, from conversations with the Registration Department, there is some doubt about the legal effect of Sub-section (2) of Clause 2, and as to whether it does succeed or not in transferring the penalties from the principal Act to this Bill. That is my second point with regard to penalties. My final point with regard to penalties is that a new penalty is introduced under the terms of this amending Bill, and this new penalty of £5, instituted in terms in this amending Bill, falls upon those who fail to produce their certificates 884 of registration. How they can produce their certificates of registration without having first registered I cannot see, and therefore I think I am entirely right in saying that the penalties of the original Act and certain new penalties are provided in terms in the present Bill, and they fall upon children of fifteen, on whom is placed the liability of registering themselves under this amending Bill. This is a very serious point indeed: I believe it is the most serious point with regard to the machinery proposed in this. Bill.
And I want to remind you, Sir, that whereas the original Act did cause persons who have reached the age of fifteen to be registered after a form had been delivered for that purpose, this House deliberately refused on that occasion to sanction any proposal which would put any sort of penalty upon anyone under the age of eighteen, or refusing or failing to fill up and return the form, even after it had been presented to them for the purpose of being filled up. I do not know whether hon. Members now present heard the Debate on this question when the original Act was under discussion. I hope the President of the Local Government Board will refresh his memory by a reference to the OFFICIAL REPORT, and he will see how strong the feeling was in this House, and which has found expression again and again in recent legislation, that you should not create new statutory crimes for children and young persons. It was as the result of that strong feeling that the deliberate decision was come to that whatever penalties were provided in the Act should only fall upon persons above the age of eighteen years. The President of the Local Government Board a little earlier in the evening said that we could give no example of an Act where no penalties were proposed for non-observance of liability. He invited the House to give him an example. I desire to give him an example, and it is the Registration Act, of which this is the amending Bill. It imposed no penalties whatever for a breach even of the whole of the provisions of that Act on any person under the age of eighteen years. In this amending Bill you introduce a new penalty in terms which falls upon everyone affected by the measure of the age of fifteen and upwards, and, by the somewhat involved draftsmanship to which I have referred, I think you also transfer the other 885 penalties from the original Act and make them applicable also to this measure, the two being construed together.
If my Amendment is not accepted, what will it mean? It will mean that if a schoolboy of fifteen—he may be in an industrial school or a private boarding school—fails within fourteen days to obtain, fill up, and return the form, he is to be subjected to a heavy fine, and I think, according to my reading of the Bill, a continuing fine. If this boy of fifteen on leaving school fails within fourteen days to obtain, fill up, and return another form stating that his occupation is no longer that of a schoolboy, or something else, he is again subject to penalties, and I think continuing penalties. If the same schoolboy a week later changes his address and fails to obtain another form and fill it up and return it he is again subjected to severe penalties. That might happen in many cases among the thousands of schoolboys if my Amendment is not accepted. You might have the case of the schoolboy of fifteen in entire ignorance of this Act and the amazing machinery by which it is proposed to carry it out. If the boy fails with regard to change of employment to register within fourteen days or to register a change of address that his parents have made he may have committed three new statutory crimes and he is liable to prosecution for a breach of the Act on each of those counts. What I say with regard to the position of the schoolboys is equally true with regard to the discharged soldier. He may arrive in this country after the passing of the Act and may be in entire ignorance that it was passed, and yet if within fourteen days he fails to notify himself for registration or to return his employment or particulars of his change of address he commits three new offences, for which he is liable to severe penalties. I do not think the Committee will sanction those liabilities being placed on school children and on discharged soldiers and sailors. I would ask the sympathetic consideration of the right hon. Gentleman for this matter. A large part of the objections to the machinery proposed in this Amending Bill will be met if he will modify this Clause which places upon the individual the duty of securing registration within so short a time and subjects him to such heavy penalties for any breach of the conditions. I sincerely trust that the right hon. Gentleman will not only be able to accept the Amendment and revert to the machinery of the original Act, but that he 886 will also be able to assure us that he does not propose, if the Bill is ambiguous in any respect, to let the Bill go through without removing altogether the penalties which, as it stands at present, will fall upon young persons under the age of eighteen and upon discharged soldiers and sailors.
Mr. FISHERThe hon. Gentleman desires to place the liability of acquainting both discharged soldiers and these lads of fifteen, sixteen, and seventeen with the fact that they ought to be registered on registration officer. If the Bill as it stands, compelling both discharged sailors and soldiers and lads of fifteen to obtain a form and fill it up is entirely unworkable, I think that can be applied much more to the suggestion of the hon. Member to compel the registration authority to notify all these lads who had become fifteen since the 15th of August, 1915, that inasmuch as they had attained the age of fifteen they ought to be registered. How could the local authority possibly know what lads in their area had become fifteen or sixteen or seventeen since that date? They have no means of knowing.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEThe Government have the sugar cards which give this information, and they would only have to take it from those cards and leave forms with the respective householders.
Mr. FISHERI am afraid that even with. the acquisition of that knowledge from the very recent sugar card the local authority would not be able to tell what number of lads were in its area, and still less would it be able to tell the number of discharged soldiers in the area who ought to be registered under this Bill. In the case of the original Registration Act we were able to bring to the notice of every householder the fact that the Act had been passed, but it was only because we were able to obtain very large help from volunteer bodies. Something like 150,000 volunteers came forward to assist us in compiling the register, and among those there was a very great number of school masters and school mistresses. We shah not have that aid and assistance on this occasion. Hon. Gentlemen will realise the enormous difficulties that there are for the local authorities to supply themselves with the labour or with the paper, which has become exceedingly dear and difficult to get. The only alternative to this proposal of the Bill, by which the liability to register is placed on 887 the person who should be registered, would appear to be to leave a notice in every single house, and, as my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has pointed out, that would necessitate something like 8,000,000 forms being left in the different houses throughout the whole of the country. That would be a very expensive process, and very difficult to carry out in the matter of labour and paper. What we propose is this, to give as much publicity as possible to the fact that this Bill has become law, and to the fact that every boy who became fifteen since the 15th of August, 1915, has to be registered. We shall place at every post office forms which those boys can obtain by going to those post offices. After all, the parents of the boys would probably know that their boys lad to be registered, and the schools would have the information. We shall, by that publicity, endeavour to secure that the boys may have the information at their disposal, and every possible act will be done by the local registration authority to ensure that the provisions will be well known. I do not at all anticipate that these boys are going to be placed in the position in which the hon. Member anticipates they will be placed. We heard of boys of fifteen not knowing that they had to be registered. or to go to the post office and obtain a form, and that therefore they will in that way render themselves liable to penalties amounting to The hon. Gentleman drew a picture to which he invited my sympathy, but which I think is quite unnecessary.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEIs it real?
Mr. FISHERIf the hon. Member will allow me to refer him to the Clause he will see that there are no penalties really imposed on anyone under the age of eighteen. Sub-section (2) of Clause 2 provides that "Sections 5, 6, and 13 of the principal Act (which relate respectively to the completion and correction of forms, to the right to certificates of registration, and to penalties) shall have effect as if references therein to forms included a reference to forms under this Act." The penalty Clause is lifted from the Act of 1915, and the penalties under that Act are restricted to persons over the age of eighteen, so that under the original Act no one under the age of eighteen was subjected to any,penalty. It is exactly the same, I can assure the hon. Gentleman, in this amending Bill.
§ Mr. TREVELYANIn that case I take it that there is going to be no penalty on boys if they fail to register, but the only penalties are on ex-soldiers who do not register. Is that so?
Mr. FISHERThe penalties provided under the Act apply to all those over eighteen who either refuse or without lawful excuse neglect to fill up forms at the time when they are to obtain them, or make or sign, or cause to be made or signed any false returns.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEThis is a most important point, and I would now ask the right hon. Gentleman to turn to Subsection (4) of Clause 6, which states that if any person fails to comply with the provisions of this Section he is to be liable to a fine not exceeding £5. The right hon. Gentleman, I am sure, will not dispute that that affects persons between the ages of fifteen and eighteen. The offence for which a person can be fined £5 is for refusing or failing to produce his certificate of registration. Therefore, a young person of fifteen who does not register, and is then asked to produce his certificate of registration is, for failing to do so, subject to a penalty of £5. Am I right or not?
Mr. FISHERI was dealing with the penalties under Clause 2. As to the penalty under Clause 6, it is true that the drafting of the Bill did undoubtedly leave it in some doubt, at all events, as to whether the penalties did not attach to those of fifteen, sixteen, or seventeen. I have already framed an Amendment, with which I am sure the House will agree, making that provision apply to persons over the age of eighteen, and it is on my notes, and it is my intention to move it at a later stage. I think it commends itself to the Committee that penalties under the Clause may be in fact on those not under the age of eighteen. I wanted to make it quite clear that we have no intention of inflicting penalties on youths under the age of eighteen. At a later period of the evening we shall be able to make it perfectly plain to the Committee that, as the original Act did not impose penalties on those under the age of eighteen, so this amending bill does not impose penalties for failure to perform duties under this Act on those under the age of eighteen. I am afraid I cannot put the liability on the local authority actually to make certain that these forms 889 shall be left at the houses of those who ought to be registered. I am afraid they will have to obtain the forms from the nearest post office, or, possibly, from some other place which is equally convenient, but certainly forms will be available at the post office and the local authority I have mentioned will make it as well known as possible that this duty is imposed.
§ Mr. TREVELYANI think the speech to which we have just listened has created rather a serious situation. We have been discussing this Bill as a compulsory Bill. It is quite true it will remain in part compulsory after what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but with regard to lads between the ages of fifteen and eighteen it will not be compulsory, for the simple reason that there are no penalties. That, I think, is, on the whole, perhaps a very reasonable solution, and, at any rate, for my part I am quite satisfied with that. I think that, as the House desires the registration extended, it is desirable that it should be extended on a purely voluntary basis. There is now going to he no penalty on youths who are not registered either by themselves or their parents, and what the right hon. Gentleman says about making the provisions as widely known as possible is, of course, under those circumstances, perfectly satisfactory. But it remains compulsory, with penalties, for another class of men. The other large class is those we have been discussing to-day—the discharged soldiers. For them the penalties will still remain, and the penalties will still remain even if they have never heard that the registration exists. I am bound to say I think there are many people in this House who are quite agreeable to haying the Registration Bill, and even having penalties on discharged soldiers who choose not to register if they know they ought, but who will regard it as rather a serious matter that every soldier from this time henceforward who is discharged, having served his country for three years and returning from the front, does not happen to know this Bill has been passed, if he fails to register within a few days of settling in the country, will be liable to the penalties under this Bill.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he could not meet us on this Amendment, because it was impossible for the local registration authority? to find out who 890 ought to be registered. I dare say the local registration authority in many cases would be ignorant of the soldiers who had come to settle in their district. It is a competition of ignorances. Are we to put upon the local registration authority the obligation to find out who ought to be registered in the district, or are we to put upon the soldiers settled in the district the obligation to find out whether they are under this law? I venture to say it is the public authority who ought to take the responsibility, and not the soldiers, and I think it is a very unsatisfactory thing that soldiers coming back from the front should find themselves under this obligation. If, as some people think, before the end of the War there are going to be 1,000,000 of them, you are going to have a good many brought up in the Court for their ignorance and punished. It is all very well to say that magistrates will not convict. That is not the way in which we have to make laws in this House. We have to make laws on the assumption that even magistrates can be unreasonable, and we ought not to leave our soldiers, when they came back, at the tender mercy of the reasonableness of magistrates. If they do not know the law exists they ought not to be punished, and that is the point of this Amendment.
I very much regret that the right hon. Gentleman cannot see his way to meet us in some way or other. I should have thought that he might in some way have modified the penalty Clause. I do not know whether he has looked at an Amendment I have lower down on the Paper to insert at the end of the Clause the words
"But, no penalty shall attach to any failure of duty under this Section unless it can be proved that the person charged has been warned in writing by the local registration authority of his duty to register under the Act."
That might be modified by substituting. after the word "charged" the words "has not had an opportunity of due warning." It might be less strict than the words I have got down, which the right hon. Gentleman has already rejected in the speech he has made. But I cannot help thinking he might consider amending the penalty Clause in some such way as that, so that it could be made clear that if a man really had hot had a decent 891 chance of knowing he would not come under the penalty. I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman will mot consider some Amendment of the Clause for the sake of the soldier?
§ Mr. MORRELLIt seems very ungracious now, after we have had this large—I will not say concession—but announcement made by the right hon. Gentleman, to criticise in any way the scope or the provisions of this Bill. Certainly I would like at once to say that this large class, who seemed by the Bill to start with to be liable to all the penalties, are now to be under no penalties whatever. They are under a legal obligation which cannot be enforced before a Court. That, I understand, is the present position. That is very satisfactory, but I think the right hon. Gentleman would have saved himself and us a great deal of trouble if he had told us all this before, and had not indulged in the very tall talk we had earlier in the Debate as regards all that this Bill was going to perform. He told us this Bill was going to be of great benefit to the Food Controller, and was going to give us great vital statistics, and we were going to have a tremendously valuable register of all the resources of the country. It was going to take us something on the way to a new heaven and a new earth, because for the first time we were going to know exactly about all the males from fifteen to sixty-five. Now, what is really going to happen? We are going to call upon these boys from fifteen to eighteen to register, and if they do not you will have nothing more to do. I think it is right that you should not impose penalties upon them, but does anyone suppose we are going to have a complete register in that way? Of course you will not. If we have large bodies of boys who find out, as they will, that there are not going to be penalties, we shall have large bodies of boys who will not register. Does the right hon. Gentleman, then, think his register will be of much value? Of course it will not be, and he knows it cannot be. Is there any step he proposes to take, if he gives up any idea of bringing them before a criminal Court, to make a complete National Register? Does he really suggest that a register formed in this way, containing a few lads here and there, is really of any great value to anybody? No doubt the original register was of considerable value.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman is now discussing the effect of an Amendment which may or may not be accepted later on.
§ Mr. MORRELLI quite agree I was going much further than I ought, but I think it would be material to know what the right hon. Gentleman has in his mind, and whether he will enlighten us as to how he is going to make this register complete if this Amendment is accepted or is rejected. In either case, it seems to arise out of what he said. Does he propose to take any steps to make this register a complete one? If I am going too far, I will not dwell further on that point. I will only say that I have heard the announcement he has made with great pleasure, although it really does confirm what I have always suspected, that this Bill, in the present state of the country, is of no national value whatever.
Mr. FISHERThe hon. Gentleman who has just sat down seems to think that a National Register will be of no use whatever unless there are penalties attaching to it.
§ Mr. MORRELL.No! Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to correct that? I do not think it will have all the benefits attributed to it by the right hon. Gentleman unless it is reasonably complete, and I do not see how he is going to make it complete. I do not want penalties attaching—
§ The CHAIRMANThat is really going into a review of the Bill as it may leave the Committee, which is an appropriate matter for the Third Reading.
Mr. FISHERThere is a duty enjoined by the Act of 1915, and now there is a duty to be enjoined by what, I hope, will be the Act of 1918, on all lads of fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, and so on, to register themselves. The hon. Gentleman seems to take the view that because they are not subject to a penalty of £5, therefore we shall not get them upon the register. That is not what I have experienced. There was no penalty attaching to youths under the age of eighteen to register themselves under the Act of 1915, yet in the great majority of cases that register was complete, or very nearly perfect. It may have become imperfect from the number of removals, but the mere fact that there was no penalty did not deter the citizens of this country from doing what an Act of Parliament 893 called upon them to do in carrying out the national duty of registering themselves. I think the whole spirit of the country is entirely different from what the hon. Gentleman thinks. I think the whole spirit of the country may really be summed up in this way: If the Government and Parliament pass an Act of Parliament which they say will be beneficial towards the winning of this War—towards the apportionment of forces by which we may win this War—the citizens of this country will not ask whether any penalties attach to the non-performance of those duties, but they will most willingly strive to perform the duties, because the Government and Parliament tell them by so doing they will be assisting the country in the time of its need. I do not take the low view that the hon. Member does about the youths of this country, that they can only be compelled to do their duty by subjecting them to heavy penalties. I believe they are stirred by far higher feelings than that; that they are stirred by feelings of patriotism and lofty duty towards their country at a time when the country needs all their services. It is that spirit which animates the people, whether there be penalties in this Bill or not, and that parents of lads, or lads themselves, will do all in their power to comply with the desires of the Act of Parliament.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEI ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, now that the right hon. Gentleman has given me a definite and complete pledge that he will assent to the introduction of words into this amending Bill making it clear that no penalties of any kind will fall upon any person under the age of eighteen for failure to observe any of the provisions of this Act. He is thus reverting to our deliberate policy when the original Act was passed. I accept the pledge of the right hon. Gentleman, and I also wish to thank him for making it in such a complete and unqualified way.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. KINGI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "fourteenth" ["the fourteenth day after that date"], and to insert instead thereof the words "twenty-eighth."
I wish to ask why we are to have less time here for this registration to be effected than was allowed under the original Registration Act? Under the original Act twenty-eight days were 894 allowed; why should the period be now reduced? It is not a very important point, but I think it well to move this Amendment.
Mr. FISHERIn the original Act it was felt that, as the Act was not very well known, it was advisable to allow a period of twenty-eight days after the Act had come into operation, in order that people might ascertain if they were liable to register, to obtain the necessary forms and to fill them up. But we think that for those who now come within the purview of the Act fourteen days will be sufficient.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEI beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2).
There really is no point of principle between us on this matter, but I desire to move to leave out this Sub-section so that I may point out to the right hon. Gentleman that he is wrong in thinking that no alteration is necessary in the Subsection, in order to carry out his undertaking that no penalty shall fall upon persons under eighteen years of age. It is clearly necessary in a later Clause to introduce some words, and I want to show the right hon. Gentleman that it is also necessary for him to do it in this case. If hon. Members will turn to Sub-section (2), they will see that the emission of this Dart of the Clause would have this effect. The Sub-section does this: it says that Section 13 of the principal Act relating to penalties shall have effect as if references therein to forms included a reference to forms under this Act. I want to use as an illustration the result of taking Section 13 of the principal Act relating to penalties, and saying that it shall have effect as if the reference to forms therein included a reference to forms under this Act Section 13, which imposes penalties on persons over eighteen years in the original Act imposes them for, among other reasons, failure to fill up certain forms. The Section says that if any person over eighteen years of age neglects to fill up a form he shall be subject to certain penalties. We have to construe that as if the reference to the forms therein included a reference to forms under this Act. As a plain layman I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the transfer with reference to forms under this Act of the penalty for failure to fill up those forms involved in the original Act would mean 895 that you would construe this Act as though the reference to forms under Section 13 of the principal Act was a reference to forms under this Act. If you read it thus surely it means that persons affected by this new Act have to fill up the forms in the way prescribed by the original Act, and if they fail to do so then they are subject to the penalties laid down in the Sub-section. Both the right hon. Gentleman and the Department I know have had some doubts on this point. I acknowledge quite freely that if the result of this Sub-section is to transfer the penalties from the principal Act to this Act, it is done unintentionally, and I want to invite the right hon. Gentleman to consider this point. If he is not able to give a final decision now, will he promise that if it is shown to be necessary in order to carry out his undertaking that no penalties shall fall upon young persons under eighteen, to introduce other words, he will do so on the Report stage?
§ The CHAIRMANI think this Amendment covers the four following ones in the name of the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King).
§ Mr. KINGI quite agree, but I rather think that my Amendments are the better ones, and I am going to suggest to my hon. Friend that his point would be more adequately met if the President of the Local Government Board accepted my proposal. Now this Sub-section applies to three Clauses in the principal Act—the 5th, 6th, and 13th. With regard to the first of these three, it deals with the completion and correction of forms, and provides that the local registration authorities shall cause forms to be got out, and shall get them tabulated, and so on. That is all right. It is inevitable that there must be some such provision. Then Section 6 of the principal Act deals with the certificate to be given to the persons who have registered, and that, too, is inevitable and desirable. It is only when you come to Section 13 of the principal Act, which deals with penalties, that the real difficulty or difference of opinion arises, and I suggest that my right hon. Friend might drop this proposal so far as it affects Section 13 of the principal Act. If he did so, he would really be carrying out what I believe is intended, and at the same time he would do away with the objection which soldiers feel to this registration, an objection which has been very strongly 896 insisted upon during the two hours' Debate we have had on the point. It would do away with the imposition of penalties on soldiers, and take away the real objection which they have to the proposal. I think the acceptance of this Section would strengthen the Bill and deprive it of its most objectionable aspect—that of putting penalties upon discharged soldiers
§ 8.0 P.M.
Mr. FISHERIt is impossible for us to accept the Amendment to omit Sub-section (2), because then the Bill would be without any penalty. We should impose upon lads of fifteen and upwards and on discharged soldiers the necessity of filling up the forms, but we should make no provision for the collection of those forms or for the machinery used under the principal Act to be applied also to this amending Act. The lion. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) asked whether I would not accept two Amendments which dropped all reference to Section 13. What would be the effect of accepting that? There would then be a duty imposed on lads of fifteen, sixteen, and seventeen to register, but no penalty. There would also be no penalty attaching to those over eighteen years who were discharged soldiers and sailors for failing to fulfil their obligation to register. It would have this effect, that as a penalty would attach to all those who were not discharged soldiers or sailors there would be a duty and a penalty in their case, but a duty only on the part of the discharged soldier or sailor to register. I think that would be a rather unfair distinction, and it would be one which might very likely be greatly resented by munition workers, and many others who, at all events in their opinion, are doing equally as good work as soldiers and sailors at the present time. I have already promised before the Report stage to consider the whole case of the penalties which attach to soldiers and sailors in case of non-compliance with this Act through want of knowledge on their part of the existence of the Act, while at the same time having a readiness to comply with it directly it is pointed out that they have not registered. and I will consider whether I can bring up any words which will, at all events, mitigate the penalty which they would suffer. I cannot accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Somerset, but I will consider the whole question of penalties in the interval which is going to elapse before the Report stage. We shall then, perhaps, be in a better position to consider the whole 897 subject, and to consider it in view of the fact that I have promised a limit acceptable to hon. Gentlemen opposite, and one that will make sure that no one under eighteen will be subject to any penalty in connection with any duty under the Bill. I hope that assurance on my part will give some satisfaction, to hon. Gentlemen.
§ Mr. TREVELYANWhat I am interested in is not quite so much the diminution of the penalties on soldiers. They are not very serious on a man who deliberately refuses to register, and I am chiefly concerned with the soldiers' knowledge. I shall not move my Amendment, but if the right hon. Gentleman undertakes to consider carefully before the Report stage some means, if possible, of warning soldiers of their duty to register, I shall be quite content with that.
Mr. FISHERI have been in communication already with the War Office, and they think that at all events so far as future discharged soldiers are concerned they will be able to give them the information that on discharge they will be required to register under this Bill if it becomes an Act of Parliament. I will, however, look further into that.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEIn view of the remarks the right hon. Gentleman has made, and his promise further to consider the matter, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.