§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £4,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain."
§ 4.0 P.M.
§ Mr. LOUGHThe first item in this Vote is £1,500 for the new offices of the Ministry of Food. I should like to take the opportunity to ask my right hon. Friend opposite (Sir A. Mond) a few questions. The Ministry of Food is one of the 503 largest housed of the many Ministries. It commenced at Grosvenor House, and then, so far as I understand, entered into occupation of three or four other places. After a few months, becoming dissatisfied with the accommodation provided, they came down to buildings at Westminster, opposite the Houses of Parliament. We see that, instead of commandeering buildings on which a good deal of money has already been spent, the Ministry go out to South Kensington and commandeer a building there. My right hon. Friend will be able to tell us some of the reasons why this Ministry wants so many large buildings. He will be able to tell us the cost of the existing buildings, the number of the staff accommodated, and so on, and then we can judge whether this other building should be placed at their disposal or not. As to the building itself, the new museum, it has apparently cost £110,000. Has it been completed? If so, was it applied to the purposes of art and science before it was occupied by the Ministry of Food or has it been specially completed for the purposes here provided in the Estimate? Is the situation considered a suitable one for the Ministry of Food? If we might judge by some of the Orders issued lately in connection with the Ministry of Food, the proper locality should be further east, so as to be better able to deal with the matter of sugar, meat, and tea in the close way evidently contemplated in the new Order issued so recently. It is now quite clear that the movement westward to South Kensington was a very bad move. Certainly some of the late Orders issued, especially the Tea Order issued on Saturday, will make a constant movement and interference with that great trade necessary, and, under the circumstances, the Ministry of Food had better have taken one of the houses in Mincing Lane or somewhere in the City. At any rate, I think South Kensington an unsuitable place, for reasons which could easily be stated. We shall be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would give the House some information on the points I have raised, and as to whether it is necessary that there should be such a large extension of premises for the Ministry of Food.
§ Sir CHARLES HENRYI agree with my right hon. Friend entirely that, as the Food Ministry has to deal with articles which are essentially dealt with in the 504 City of London, South Kensington, of all districts in London, is the most unsuitable for the housing of any of that Department. The Office of Works could have found accommodation in the City about Mark Lane, or the docks, and the Ministry of Food would then have been able to carry on the reception and distribution of food under much, very much, better conditions than at South Kensington. Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the Committee to what extent the museums have been encroached upon? We all remember that towards the end of last year steps were taken by the Commissioner of Works to commandeer the British Museum. All sections of the House, I think, were gratified when that ambitious project was not allowed to materialise. I should like to know to what extent the right hon. Gentleman or his Department have commandeered other museums or sections of them? There is another point in connection with this Vote on which I should like to put a question. I see, under Item D, £2,500 Supplementary for fuel, light, water, and household articles. I would like some particulars of that. Does it apply only to the buildings at South Kensington or to what buildings does it apply? I do not know whether the present is the occasion to raise the question of the charge for fuel and light, and other similar services of the different Departments which require these things. I hope that will be taken up later. I do ask, however, as to this amount, £2,500, that the right hon. Gentleman should enumerate to what Departments it applies? I would urge my right hon. Friend, when he takes new accommodation, not to confine himself entirely to South Kensington, or even Whitehall, but to distribute his needs for premises all over London so far as possible, and that he should get accommodation in the locality where the work can be carried on under the most satisfactory conditions.
§ Sir J. D. REESBefore the right hon. Gentleman replies to this, I should like to inquire whether this fuel is chiefly for radiators or to any large extent for the open coal fires, which are exceedingly expensive and which are only used in this extravagant country? So far as I know they do exist largely in Government offices, and are frequently going for hours together when the rooms are not occupied. When any officer is not coming back to his room which has a fire of this sort, is it 505 required of him, or is it a rule of the office, that he should pass the word, saying that that open coal lire is not to be kept burning this precious substance unnecessarily, so as to put up the coal bill and diminish the supply of that which is of the utmost military and economic importance at the present time? I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am speaking in this way from my own observations. This might appear to be a small matter that one ought not to trouble the House with, except one considered the circumstances of the time. As to the £l,500 on account of the new Science Museum, is it really the case that the Government are carrying on the erection of a new Science Museum at a time like this? Are we really erecting homes for luxuries of this description at this crisis of the country's fate? As regards the distribution of new Government offices, I think it is better done than the hon. Baronet beneath me imagines. It really is the case that all the buildings taken up by the Government are not clustered together in one particular district. For instance, my hon. Friend probably does not know that Covent Garden, as I have reason to know, is full of buildings taken over by the Government, and that the Government is about to commandeer more in that classic region.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEI wish to raise a question of principle connected with these Votes. For my own part I desire to express regret that so many of these educational institutions of the country are being commandeered by the right hon. Gentleman, and diverted from educational purposes in order to meet temporary needs for office accommodation. It would be out of order for me to deal with other Votes, and of the other occasions when the right hon. Gentleman has done what i, for my part, think he should not have done, and taken educational buildings for other than educational purposes. But the question arises distinctly in regard to sub-divisions A and B of this Vote. The right hon. Gentleman has stopped building on the Science Museum, so far as it was being built as a Science Museum, and instead of proceeding with the work of a science college has adapted a portion of it for temporary needs. My point is this: It means that until the end of the War no progress can be made in building and equipping the new Science College at South Kensington. I submit that that is a very great loss to the educational needs of this 506 country. It is a department which ought not to be taken at all, seeing that there is no real occasion for it. Similarly under sub-division B, the science and art buildings which have been closed to the public are diverted and used by the Education Department, which ought never to have been ejected from Whitehall. The reason which has rendered it necessary to put in a Supplementary Vote of £2,500 for heating purposes for the Board of Education is really, I think, quite scandalous when we remember that it is caused by the ejectment of the Board of Education from Whitehall, and their being placed in a very inaccessible and most unsuitable place in South Kensington.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell the Committee whether he is going on to commandeer educational buildings in order to find office accommodation for these. innumerable new Government Departments which spring up? I suggest to him that the proper course to follow is to take. not educational buildings, but to build temporary buildings, or to commandeer any of the buildings which exist which are not directly concerned with such a vital national thing as education. By commandeering educational buildings he might get over the difficulties of the moment, but the nation itself will suffer in consequence a very serious loss indeed. Finally I wish to protest, seeing that these buildings are diverted from their proper educational use, that nevertheless, owing to the method in which the accounts are presented, which is, I suppose, a matter for the Secretary to the Treasury, it would still appear that we are spending amounts upon the original purposes for which these buildings were erected. There is an item of £1,500 expenses incurred to make these buildings suitable for the Ministry of Food, and that will be debited to the new science college just as though it were an expenditure incurred in the course of education.
§ Mr. HOGGEI do not share the views which have been expressed by the hon. Gentlemen who have just sat down, for in my opinion the authorities are perfectly right to take possession of all these public buildings, which very few people ever enter even in times of peace and prosperity. Even if you look at the most popular educational institutions, the attendance of the general public is so small that no great hardship is put upon them by these buildings being used for 507 other purposes during the War. Therefore I hope the right hon. Gentleman will pay no attention to the request which has been made by my hon. Friend opposite. What I would like to ask is whether this is the same building as was originally intended to be used for the headquarters of the Pensions Ministry?
It is fifteen months since the Government promised this House that the pension administration was to be brought under one roof in a building at South Kensington, and I believe that this was the building which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) promised would be used for that purpose. Since that time nothing has happened in that particular direction, and I believe the Ministry of Pensions is still distributed in, I think, about twenty-eight separate buildings about London. If this is the same building I very strongly object to its being used for the Ministry of Food, because an office for the purposes of the Ministry of Food ought to be placed more among the people who will have to go there. With regard to accommodation for the Ministry of Pensions, it would not be inconvenient at South Kensington for those who would have to use it, although for the other purpose it would be very inconvenient to business people. In replying, I would like the right hon. Gentleman to say if this is the same building, and why the Government in this matter have departed from their original intention.
§ Mr. J. M. ROBERTSONI would like to know whether it is through the Department of the right hon. Gentleman that certain galleries of the British Museum are being prepared for some use in connection with war administration, and what use exactly those galleries are to be put to?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Sir Donald Maclean)That is a question which the First Commissioner cannot answer on this particular Vote.
§ The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Sir Alfred Mond)In reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington (Mr. Lough), I should have been able to give much fuller information had I received notice, and many of the points are a little far away from this Vote. The Ministry of Food began its operations at Grosvenor House and four 508 houses in close proximity to that building, and they are still in possession of the Ministry of Food. The headquarters of this Department have been accommodated at St. Stephen's Chambers, and in addition accommodation is afforded there for the, Wheat Commission, which is an independent Department. Then the County Council Hall is being prepared for another section of the Ministry of Food, as well as the Imperial Institute.
§ Sir A. MONDNot the whole of it, but a certain part. The Imperial Institute is occupied by the sugar rationing scheme of the Ministry of Food. With regard to the position of accommodation, I am not responsible for the district in which a certain Department demands to have offices, but as far as the sugar rationing scheme is concerned, I think the accommodation at South Kensington is quite as suitable for that purpose as the more expensive buildings would be in the City. There appears to be some misunderstanding about the position of the new Science Museum. It was in course of construction when the War broke out, and it was in an incomplete condition. The hon. Member for Mid-Lanark (Mr. White-house) seems to think that. I ought to go on with the building of this museum during the War, but that is not a matter which comes within my province, and if the Department concerned refuse to proceed I am not able to go an building the museum. The building referred to was one upon which considerable expense had to be incurred fitting it up in order to make it suitable for the accommodation required, but this expenditure will eventually prove to some advantage to the museum, and so far from abusing me, I think the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark ought to congratulate me upon my ingenuity in combining a Government use of this building which will ultimately be of some benefit to the museum. My Department is frequently charged with extravagance, but here you have a number of Government buildings which cost us nothing in the way of rent, and which to use for war purposes inconveniences nobody, and I should have thought that this Committee would have been very glad to see buildings of this kind used instead of taking over fresh buildings. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member 509 for Wellington Sir (J. Henry), we are utilising as offices a large part of the National Gallery, the Tate Gallery, the Wallace Gallery, the Victoria and Albert Gallery, and a small part of the British Museum. With regard to the item for the cost of fuel and lighting in Government offices, it must be remembered that the cost of these items has gone up considerably. The Board of Education are in occupation of the greater part of the Victoria and Albert Museum. With regard to the point which has been raised by the hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), my Department has urged the greatest economy possible in regard to fuel, and I think an effort has been made to secure more economy in the use of coal. I know that sometimes there is a certain amount of prejudice in regard to this matter, but, on the whole, I think Government Departments are endeavouring to fall into line. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), as to the headquarters of the Pensions Ministry, I would not like to say whether this particular building has been used for that purpose.
§ Sir A. MONDPersonally, I do not think the building referred to would be anything like big enough to accommodate the whole of the Pensions staff, who require a large building.
§ Sir C. HENRYMy right hon. Friend stated that he had no jurisdiction as to where the Department should select a site for their offices, and I was rather surprised to hear that statement. I thought we had an Accommodation Committee, who came between the demands of the different Departments, and decided as to how their requirements would be dealt with. Are we to understand that any Department is to lay down any condition and demand offices in any particular situation, irrespective as to whether the Accommodation Committee think they are entitled to have those offices in that particular district? I think this is a matter which ought to be dealt with very drastically. Very often Departments are very exacting in their demands for accommodation. I am sure we all recognise the difficulties in which my right hon. Friend finds himself, but I think the Committee over which he 510 presides should have the power to decide in which district it is necessary for these different Departments to be housed. I know from evidence which has been brought before me that there is a great desire on the part of many Departments to be housed as near as possible to Whitehall. I do not think it is necessary for some of those Departments to have that situation at all, and I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman cannot get greater power to be able to decide when he considers it is not necessary to have accommodation in a particular situation when in point of fact it is disadvantageous in the interest of the public that a Department should be housed just in the place where that particular Department has chosen.
§ Mr. LOUGHI really think the Committee ought to give some attention to the protest which has been made by my hon. Friend opposite, and I would like the right hon. Gentleman to say if all these Departments are undertaking any work or taking over any buildings which they ought not to take over, or are they ordering any work to be done without any regard to economy, and is the right hon. Gentleman giving any advice as to the course which they ought to take? The other day we all received a White Paper of a most startling character, from which we find that a new Department with regard to printing declined to consult the Stationery Office, and they put us to a great deal of extra expense by that course. The struggle is going on between the Stationery Office and the Department. This seems to me to be an illustration in a different sphere of exactly the same thing. What is the use of having an Office of Works if it does not see to all the buildings and all the works that all the various Government Departments have to carry out. If new accommodation is wanted, the first person to be consulted should be the head of the Office of Works. He should be asked whether he has any stray palaces or empty buildings that he can put at their disposal, and so save expenditure in other directions. I really think that in this matter of the extension of buildings for new Departments the right hon. Gentleman might have got all the particulars before he presented the Vote to the House. He has told us of these great buildings that the Ministry of Food are occupying, and now they are going to have a further 511 extension. My right hon. Friend did not understand one point that I made, but if he had studied some of the Orders made by the Ministry of Food he would see that they touch merchants and dealers very intimately, and he would realise that it is a great inconvenience to them to have to go to the remote district of Kensington in connection with claims for rebates, etc. I would like to ask my right hon. Friend to assure us that he is restraining the expenditure of these Departments, that they cannot take new buildings and spend money on public works without consulting him, and that he will see that in every way economy is exercised.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEThe right hon. Gentleman gave us a piece of information which appears to be contradictory of the item on the White Paper. It is described as due to increased consumption of fuel owing to the occupation of part of the Victoria and Albert Museum by the Board of Education. He said that the item represented the cost of consumption of fuel, or part of it, of the whole of the Government buildings that had been taken over. If that is so, it is very important, because it makes relevant to this discussion the inquiry addressed to him by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tyneside (Mr. J. M. Robertson), who wished to ask a question with regard to the occupation of the British Museum. If the cost of consumption of fuel, or of part of it, of the British Museum is included, it makes that inquiry relevant, and it is a point in which a great number of members of this Committee are very deeply interested. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the question and taunted those Members who had protested against the use of the British Museum for the purposes of the Air Ministry for not having raised criticisms earlier as to the occupation of the museum by certain small Government Departments. The reply is very simple indeed. Very many members of the Committee greatly deplore the decision of the Government of the day to close the British Museum, and to refuse that important educational influence to the nation at this time. Many of us were entirely unaware that in addition to the closing of the British Museum, it was being used for the purposes of Government Departments other than educational Departments. The matter came to a head when it was publicly announced that a great portion 512 of it was going to be used by one of the combatant Services. I deeply resent the fact, and the educational authorities in the country deeply resent the fact, that the British Museum should be closed, that any disturbance should take place of the internal arrangements and of the priceless exhibits that it contains, and that it should be used for wholly unnecessary purposes, seeing that other and more suitable accommodation can be obtained. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will state whether it is proposed to continue to keep the museum closed and to continue to use it for purposes other than that for which it was founded, and what arrangements he has made to adequately guard the treasures that the museum contains.
§ Sir J. D. REESSurely it is right at a time like this that the accommodation of the British Museum should be used for public purposes. I cannot see what objection there can be. When the hon. Gentle-man suggests that every refinement of education can be maintained in the height of a great war, he seems to me to press his case much too far. .I asked my right hon. Friend a question about fuel. This Vote deals with fuel, and it is a very large item. I asked him whether he would take steps to provide that the heating should be done by radiators and not by open coal fires, which is notoriously the most extravagant method of heating. On the Continent they would regard anybody as mad if he heated offices by open coal fires, but we have them blazing away, often when rooms are unoccupied.
§ Notice taken that forty Members were not present; House counted, and forty Members being found present—
§ Sir J. D. REES (resuming)I was about to urge upon my right hon. Friend the necessity of providing means whereby people engaged in Government Departments removed from Whitehall can obtain luncheon. In one office in which I am interested there are 300 ladies and no luncheon is provided in the place. There is ample luncheon accommodation in the offices round about Whitehall, but outside the charmed circle of Whitehall it is necessary that some arrangements should be made for providing these ladies with luncheon. I myself have experienced the difficulty, and I should be obliged if the right hon. Gentleman would take the matter in hand and move in the proper quarter if he himself is not the proper authority.
§ Sir A. MONDMy right hon. Friend (Mr. Lough) questioned the procedure which is now adopted on the subject of accommodation. When I came into office I found a good deal of overlapping, friction, and irritation, and at my request the Prime Minister appointed a small Committee to deal with all questions of Departmental accommodation. This Committee had very wide powers conferred upon it by the War Cabinet, and now any Department requiring accommodation has not only got to state the accommodation it requires, but it has to fill up a schedule stating the number of clerks employed and the class of accommodation needed. The matter is very carefully investigated by two inspectors with professional ability, and buildings are then proposed to the Department. If the Department does not accept those buildings, negotiations necessarily take place, but the ultimate decision both as to the suitability of the premises and their situation is entirely in the hands of the Cabinet Committee. I can assure my right hon. Friend it is not a case where the Departments have a claim to any particular building in any particular locality. Naturally, my office carries out all the alterations and all the works that are done, and these have all to be authorised by my Department. Obviously, when dealing with great and important Government services, one has to give a considerable amount of attention to the arguments put forward by responsible Ministers as to what will lead to efficient and to non-efficient working in the Department, because after all it might prove false economy to have a cheap office. Instructions have been given that no fire is to be used in offices where radiators exist, and that rule is being pretty well followed by all Government offices. If my hon. Friend knows of any instance where it is not being followed and will give it me, I will certainly see that it is attended to. The greatest economy in fuel possible is being practised. Of course, if any one leaves his room and does not intend to return it is obviously his duty to inform those attending to the fires, so that the fire is not made up and kept burning. I am glad that my hon. Friend has raised this question, and I hope that it will have a very salutary effect throughout all Government buildings.
§ Mr. WHITEHOUSEMay I have a reply to the point that I raised?
§ Sir A. MONDThe hon. Member asked a question about the British Museum. Some of the galleries, with the concurrence of the trustees and the full agreement of the responsible staff, have been allocated to non-combatant services, and seeing that the trustees and the very responsible officials are satisfied, I think my hon. Friend may be assured that there is no danger to the collection.
§ Colonel Sir C. SEELYWith regard to the British Museum, may I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman whether he cannot reconsider the question of keeping it so much closed as at present. At the time the decision to close was come to it was thought that the War would last for a very short time, but that hope has been disappointed. We have a number of men who come here from Australia, New Zealand, and other parts of the Empire, and it is a little unfortunate that, being here, they should not have the opportunity of seeing what are, after all, some of the greatest possessions of the home land. I do not know to what extent it would be possible to relax the present regulations, but I do suggest it is undesirable that an institution of such educational value should continue closed, and I would, therefore, press upon the right hon. Gentleman to give consideration to this point. I should also like to say a word with regard to fires. I hope, when the right hon. Gentleman presses upon Government offices the necessity of economy in this matter he will not forget that a large number of women are working in the Government offices, and will be careful to ensure that the rooms in which they are employed are properly warmed I have heard of cases in which the rooms have not been properly warmed and where economy is exercised in that way it may result in a considerable amount of sickness. I trust, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will not put too much pressure on people in Government offices to economise fuel unless he is careful to see that the economy does not result in insufficient warming of the rooms. With regard to the British Museum, the right hon. Gentleman has told us that it is being used by certain Government Departments, and that he is quite satisfied that this use of it does not entail any additional risk from fire to the extremely valuable collections which are contained in the Museum. There ought not to be any necessity for such a statement, but I am afraid that 515 the action taken by the right hon. Gentleman's Department when it was first proposed to take over the British Museum showed that the Department was not sufficiently alive to the value of these collections, because no one who did appreciate their value would have ever listened to the suggestion that the Museum should be used as proposed. I should be glad to have an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that in any use made of the British Museum the enormous value, not only to this country, but to the whole world of the collections housed there will be borne in mind, and that nothing will be done which will increase the risk from fire which is a great danger to these collections.
§ Captain CARR-GOMMI should like to take this opportunity of asking the right hon. Gentleman as to the policy of the Accommodation Committee of the Cabinet with regard to open spaces in London. Will he give the Committee a pledge that no further open spaces or parks in London will be covered in—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI have allowed a very great amount of latitude on this Estimate, but I think the point the hon. and gallant Gentleman is now bringing before the Committee is rather outside even those limits.
§ Mr. ROCHI should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is satisfied on the question of Government offices that existing accommodation is suitably used before additional expenditure is launched upon. It must have struck most of us who have been in the habit of visiting Government Departments that quite large rooms are used for small staffs and, while no one would wish that Ministers should not be suitably housed in accordance with the position they occupy, I would like the right hon. Gentleman to satisfy himself that existing accommodation is made use of to the best possible advantage.
§ Captain CARR-GOMMWith regard to the question of staffing accommodation, will the right hon. Gentleman give the Committee an assurance that he will have regard to the Report of the Staffing Committee presided over by Sir John Bradbury, and that before he presents any Supplementary Votes for further buildings he will obtain from the Departmental Committee all the up-to-date information he can so as to avoid taking any fresh 516 buildings unless it is absolutely necessary? It may be possible, for instance, by the-reorganisation of a Department to find room for additional staff.
§ Sir G. YOUNGERI wish to offer my sincere sympathy to the right hon. Gentleman, who has a very difficult task to perform. I rather resented his request that the Central Offices of the Unionist party should be given up for the purposes of the Food Controller, but I satisfied myself that he had done his level best to secure accommodation for these people before he decided to commandeer these particular offices, and. since then he has made every possible effort to minimise the inconvenience to us as much as possible. There has been a great deal of talk about this matter, and I felt it my duty to say that, so far as I am concerned, I have nothing whatever to complain of regarding the action of the right hon. Gentleman. On the other hand, he has done his best to reduce the inconvenience as much as possible.
§ Sir A. MONDIt is very gratifying to hear remarks of that nature. I have to say, in reply to the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Koch), that every effort is made to see that existing accommodation is taken the fullest advantage of before further accommodation is provided, and on more than one occasion our inspectors have been able, by a rearrangement and reallocation of existing offices, to provide in those offices for large numbers of the new staff for which accommodation was being demanded. I can assure the Committee that, as far as we can, we see that no accommodation is wasted, that no unreasonable demands are conceded, and that no Government money is spent which can possibly be avoided. With regard to the British Museum, the question of the opening of that institution is one entirely outside my jurisdiction, and therefore I cannot deal with the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend. On the subject of fires, I can assure him that every possible precaution will be taken by my Department to see that the risk of fire is not increased in any way.
§ Sir C. SEELYThere was another point in regard to fires. The right hon. Gentleman indicated that open fires would not be used in places where there were radiators, but often the radiator is not sufficient in a large room, and I would be glad to have an assurance that the rooms will not be allowed to be too cold.
§ Sir A. MONDI rather incline to the opinion that where there is a proper radiator the open fire is more of a fad than a necessity. With regard to the Bradbury Committee, as to which a question has been asked, up till now no Report has been received from that Committee, which has not been established very long. I shall be only too grateful if it is possible to find a method of inducing Departments to reduce their staffs.
§ Question put, and agreed to.